I think part of the problem is the definition of 'right' and left'. Because sometimes people really do just mean them to refer to economic politics, separate to progressive vs conservative
Interesting! I've often thought that the whole "oh, well, so-and-so is leftist here but would be centrist or conservative in Europe" thing seems underpinned by the assumption that the socioeconomic axis alone should and does define people's places on the left-to-right political spectrum. I didn't know it was deliberate, though!
But yeah, my experience of the political spectrum has always been that it's a sort of aggregate of various axes that each have (roughly) left-/center-/right-wing positions to be on. So "I'm a leftist" = "I'm very left-wing on a large number of issues." (Though, in fairness, there's a certain kind of US white (and usually male) leftist who is pretty clear that their vision of the left to right political spectrum begins and ends at class issues. But they're one of the smaller factions IMO, and generally "more leftist" and "more progressive" are fairly interchangeable.)
But for me the full true statement is "many European countries (and Australia) are more left-wing than the US, but just as conservative and bigoted and awful in their own way", when a lot of people mean "Europe/Australia is more left wing, and thus more progressive in general", like the rampant racism/homophobia etc is unimportant rather than simply not included under the narrow definition of left vs right.
Yeah, I've definitely noticed the eliding of "social issues aren't relevant to the current discussion" (dubious in itself IMO—I think the packaging of all issues other than class into one bundle is a major problem) and "social issues aren't important, really." :\
Also, I think it's ... hmm, even more countrywanky, but I've certainly seen studies suggesting that, overall, western European progressives are more conservative than US progressives on a number of "social issues" and not just comparably bad (I don't remember where Australia fit into this, sorry!), which makes the insistence that we're more conservative across the board both distasteful and false.
And those organisations tend to be controlled by white straight working class men who very overtly consider issues like race/gender etc to be secondary to, or even a distraction from, the truly important issue of class.
Interesting—I'm definitely familiar with that line of thinking, but more from academia than politics.
Like...I once read a history of feminism in Australia which talked about how it grew from socialist ideals and was about working together as a collective for the greater good...and then these WOC influenced by those CAPITALISTS IN AMERICA and their TOTALLY UNRELATED CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT were OBSESSED WITH INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY and kept complaining about RACISM. And the writer clearly expected the reader to sympathise with the poor put upon socialist white women having to deal with these UN-SOCIALIST SPLITTERS, and if someone suggested that not caring about racism made her LESS left wing she would be entirely baffled.
Oh wow! That sounds ... um, partly like a kind of academic I'm familiar with, and partly like Earth 2.
no subject
Interesting! I've often thought that the whole "oh, well, so-and-so is leftist here but would be centrist or conservative in Europe" thing seems underpinned by the assumption that the socioeconomic axis alone should and does define people's places on the left-to-right political spectrum. I didn't know it was deliberate, though!
But yeah, my experience of the political spectrum has always been that it's a sort of aggregate of various axes that each have (roughly) left-/center-/right-wing positions to be on. So "I'm a leftist" = "I'm very left-wing on a large number of issues." (Though, in fairness, there's a certain kind of US white (and usually male) leftist who is pretty clear that their vision of the left to right political spectrum begins and ends at class issues. But they're one of the smaller factions IMO, and generally "more leftist" and "more progressive" are fairly interchangeable.)
But for me the full true statement is "many European countries (and Australia) are more left-wing than the US, but just as conservative and bigoted and awful in their own way", when a lot of people mean "Europe/Australia is more left wing, and thus more progressive in general", like the rampant racism/homophobia etc is unimportant rather than simply not included under the narrow definition of left vs right.
Yeah, I've definitely noticed the eliding of "social issues aren't relevant to the current discussion" (dubious in itself IMO—I think the packaging of all issues other than class into one bundle is a major problem) and "social issues aren't important, really." :\
Also, I think it's ... hmm, even more countrywanky, but I've certainly seen studies suggesting that, overall, western European progressives are more conservative than US progressives on a number of "social issues" and not just comparably bad (I don't remember where Australia fit into this, sorry!), which makes the insistence that we're more conservative across the board both distasteful and false.
And those organisations tend to be controlled by white straight working class men who very overtly consider issues like race/gender etc to be secondary to, or even a distraction from, the truly important issue of class.
Interesting—I'm definitely familiar with that line of thinking, but more from academia than politics.
Like...I once read a history of feminism in Australia which talked about how it grew from socialist ideals and was about working together as a collective for the greater good...and then these WOC influenced by those CAPITALISTS IN AMERICA and their TOTALLY UNRELATED CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT were OBSESSED WITH INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY and kept complaining about RACISM. And the writer clearly expected the reader to sympathise with the poor put upon socialist white women having to deal with these UN-SOCIALIST SPLITTERS, and if someone suggested that not caring about racism made her LESS left wing she would be entirely baffled.
Oh wow! That sounds ... um, partly like a kind of academic I'm familiar with, and partly like Earth 2.