lol, tumblr

[anghraine]

Not even f-locking this.

Okay, another anti-woobification rant popped on my dash, of the 'I just don't understand stupid shallow fangirls acting like their woobies are just misunderstood, why do they have to ruin the characters for the rest of us' variety. So I responded with, well, that'd be because they think they ARE misunderstood, at least to some extent, and fandoms often focus on dark characters' softer sides because it's what conflicts with the general villainy and makes them interesting in the first place, and come on, other people interpreting characters differently doesn't ruin the characters, even if we think the other interpretations make no sense. We can disagree and point out problematic trends and all that without going all STOP HAVING FUN, GUYS at swaths of fandom.

(Or: If you think Darcy is a hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul, I think you're wrong. I don't, however, think that you're stupid, immoral, or somehow wrecking Darcy as I see him in the book, I just disagree. And probably don't like your fic. That's okay.)

I was unprepared, however, for the OP's brilliantly persuasive rebuttal:

go away i don't care

Wow, I'm crushed. Of course, then other people were responding to me, and she complained about that, then deleted her posts, and now she's complaining that those people just don't understand, she was talking about woobies and not just liking villains, her username is a villain, some people just have no reading comprehension, GOD. Because, clearly, we weren't talking at all about woobification, just about enjoying evil characters being evil. Getting a kick out of Palpatine's machinations and MUAHAHAHAHAHA ULTIMATE POWAH!!! is the only proper way to like villains.

Comments

[sathari]

Oh, wow. RAGECAR TO THE ANGRY DOME, there are still seats left available if anyone wants them!

Okay. Got that part out of my system.

Now for the more articulate piece. I'm an unashamed woobie-fier. Mostly because what I see in these villains is how, while they're not necessarily "more sinned against than sinning", the villains who engage me are the ones who are villains because of what I find to be a clearly constructed sets of wrongs done them in their canons, and I like pointing out alllllllll the folks who contributed to their villainy, and then exploring how their abilities (which are often more formidable than the heroes') could have been turned to a more constructive purpose if only some piece of that sequence of events had been changed.

And, yes, I like that their abilities are often more formidable than the heroes'. I have a huge competence kink, a huge talent kink. When I find somebody in fiction whose reasons for not using that competence and talent for good, or at least for neutral-purposes, are rooted in some systematic, even systemic, environmental circumstance (most often in their upbringing, which, dear merciful suffering Cthulhu, if someone wants to tell me that, e.g., the things Yoda and even Obi-wan--- and no, Qui-gon wasn't blameless either, but I think that at least he expected that he was going to be there in person to ameliorate the suck and fail--- did to Anakin were deserved by the kid, I'm just going to look at that person in horror. And hope that they are far, far more benevolent when it comes to any actual children in their lives), I want to explore what's necessary to lose the villainy and keep the competence. And there are a lot of ways to do that! So there are a lot of ways to "woobiefy" a character--- as many as there are interrupts in their "fall", places where something could go right for them and they bring their awesome to bear for better purposes. (The ones I love most are the ones who very clearly attach amorally to someone, because it's so easy to find them a better someone to attach to. And to play with the idea that their goodness isn't internal, it's just stemming from attachment to someone who has a better clue about prosocial behavior. irnan's story IV in her "hexa-" series is a good example of that. Padme is far from perfect, but she's a damn sight better than Palpatine was by the time he got to Anakin, and so Anakin is concomitantly more of a force for the benefit of his society because that's who he's the Dragon for. This kid was raised around Hutts, man. Albeit by a mom who, as you said elsewhere on here, did some damn good parenting, and has managed to foster this very prosocial "he knows nothing of greed" thing in him. And then he gets to the Jedi and it hits his past lived experiences and interacts with the worldview he's built up, and OH SHIT THERE GOES THE PLANET GALAXY. But that interaction is so! much! fun! to play with.

There is a piece of my plaint here that is also pure unadulterated frustration with incompetent good guys--- heroes who are not that good at hero-things. (Luke subverts this trope marvelously because OH SHIT is he ever a good pilot and good with machines and that's been part of him from before he was Discovered As A Hero--- Lucas softpedaled that, IMO so it would sell to the Fanboy Crowd who want to believe that a Wise Old Mentor is just waiting to show up on their doorstep and Reveal Their Greatness, after which they will suddenly be given All The Abilities All Of Them, and NO TALENT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. It may be going unrecognized, but the radioactive spider is not going to bite you and make you a superhero; you have to be good at stuff first, and that takes both the yeast starter of talent and the will and environment to develop it, and that's hard shit, man, and it doesn't always mean that you get to be a hero; sometimes Obi-wan never comes and you're stuck on the moisture farm on Tatooine, and sometimes you actually have to apply to the Imperial Academy and deal with the social and ethical fucktuppery there for a while to get your training and then make some hard internal choices about whether you're willing to be Biggs Darklighter and throw away your cushy job and become a rebel, you know? Or be Han Solo and chuck it for your conscience but it takes a while to find what your conscience needs to latch onto. This is one of the things I love about the Iron Man movies: Tony Stark already had the talent, it was the broader social awareness that he needed to develop--- and honestly, he's one of those people I also see as getting fucked over systemically, because he was born into this Cold-War-era military-industrial-complex, and Obadiah Stane in particular had a lot of incentives to treat Tony like a mushroom and prevent him from getting any kind of clue at all. I could talk about that one for days, man, DAYS.)

Oh, wow, that was a lot! Basically, I am so, so with you. (Also. Fitzwilliam Darcy is a fucking introvert and possibly a geek in the sense of being really thinky but not necessarily gothically broody, just lost in ALL THE THOUGHTS and annoyed when someone wants to make small talk because it gets in the way of ALL THE THOUGHTS, and really I wouldn't be shocked if in our time period he had a hard-science doctorate and everyone knew better than to invite him to the non-geek parties anyway. To which Elizabeth would also be invited because she's a scientist too, much to her mother's despair because HOW WILL YOU EVER GET A HUSBAND OH WELL AT LEAST THERE ARE LOTS OF MEN IN SCIENCE AND THEY MAKE GOOD MONEY SOME OF THEM and Lizzie and Darcy would argue a lot at the parties. And possibly simply get married, in the words of C.S. Lewis, so as to go on doing it more conveniently. PEOPLE WOULD SELL TICKETS TO THEIR ARGUMENTS. IT WOULD PAY FOR THE BOOZE AT THE GEEK PARTIES. Darcy would be appalled but then Lizzie would say something too irresistible not to answer back. OH DEAR I THINK I JUST BRED A PLOTBUNNY ALL OVER YOUR JOURNAL.)

[tree]

(Or: If you think Darcy is a hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul, I think you're wrong. I don't, however, think that you're stupid

oh, i do. unapologetically. well, maybe not the sex god thing. there's no canonical evidence that he's not a sex god. ;)

[kaz]

I am here solely to mention that because my mind was fixed on Avengers fandom when I read this I went "....what" when I reached your description of Darcy. And now I can't stop trying to make sense of hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul Darcy, so THANK YOU FOR THAT MENTAL IMAGE. I am happy to share.

[rebeccation]

anghraine, you have the best people making the best comments on this post. I'm sick and was having a crappy day, but it's looking a lot better. Also, plot bunnies.