lol, tumblr

[anghraine]

Not even f-locking this.

Okay, another anti-woobification rant popped on my dash, of the 'I just don't understand stupid shallow fangirls acting like their woobies are just misunderstood, why do they have to ruin the characters for the rest of us' variety. So I responded with, well, that'd be because they think they ARE misunderstood, at least to some extent, and fandoms often focus on dark characters' softer sides because it's what conflicts with the general villainy and makes them interesting in the first place, and come on, other people interpreting characters differently doesn't ruin the characters, even if we think the other interpretations make no sense. We can disagree and point out problematic trends and all that without going all STOP HAVING FUN, GUYS at swaths of fandom.

(Or: If you think Darcy is a hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul, I think you're wrong. I don't, however, think that you're stupid, immoral, or somehow wrecking Darcy as I see him in the book, I just disagree. And probably don't like your fic. That's okay.)

I was unprepared, however, for the OP's brilliantly persuasive rebuttal:

go away i don't care

Wow, I'm crushed. Of course, then other people were responding to me, and she complained about that, then deleted her posts, and now she's complaining that those people just don't understand, she was talking about woobies and not just liking villains, her username is a villain, some people just have no reading comprehension, GOD. Because, clearly, we weren't talking at all about woobification, just about enjoying evil characters being evil. Getting a kick out of Palpatine's machinations and MUAHAHAHAHAHA ULTIMATE POWAH!!! is the only proper way to like villains.

Comments

[sathari]

Oh, wow. RAGECAR TO THE ANGRY DOME, there are still seats left available if anyone wants them!

Okay. Got that part out of my system.

Now for the more articulate piece. I'm an unashamed woobie-fier. Mostly because what I see in these villains is how, while they're not necessarily "more sinned against than sinning", the villains who engage me are the ones who are villains because of what I find to be a clearly constructed sets of wrongs done them in their canons, and I like pointing out alllllllll the folks who contributed to their villainy, and then exploring how their abilities (which are often more formidable than the heroes') could have been turned to a more constructive purpose if only some piece of that sequence of events had been changed.

And, yes, I like that their abilities are often more formidable than the heroes'. I have a huge competence kink, a huge talent kink. When I find somebody in fiction whose reasons for not using that competence and talent for good, or at least for neutral-purposes, are rooted in some systematic, even systemic, environmental circumstance (most often in their upbringing, which, dear merciful suffering Cthulhu, if someone wants to tell me that, e.g., the things Yoda and even Obi-wan--- and no, Qui-gon wasn't blameless either, but I think that at least he expected that he was going to be there in person to ameliorate the suck and fail--- did to Anakin were deserved by the kid, I'm just going to look at that person in horror. And hope that they are far, far more benevolent when it comes to any actual children in their lives), I want to explore what's necessary to lose the villainy and keep the competence. And there are a lot of ways to do that! So there are a lot of ways to "woobiefy" a character--- as many as there are interrupts in their "fall", places where something could go right for them and they bring their awesome to bear for better purposes. (The ones I love most are the ones who very clearly attach amorally to someone, because it's so easy to find them a better someone to attach to. And to play with the idea that their goodness isn't internal, it's just stemming from attachment to someone who has a better clue about prosocial behavior. irnan's story IV in her "hexa-" series is a good example of that. Padme is far from perfect, but she's a damn sight better than Palpatine was by the time he got to Anakin, and so Anakin is concomitantly more of a force for the benefit of his society because that's who he's the Dragon for. This kid was raised around Hutts, man. Albeit by a mom who, as you said elsewhere on here, did some damn good parenting, and has managed to foster this very prosocial "he knows nothing of greed" thing in him. And then he gets to the Jedi and it hits his past lived experiences and interacts with the worldview he's built up, and OH SHIT THERE GOES THE PLANET GALAXY. But that interaction is so! much! fun! to play with.

There is a piece of my plaint here that is also pure unadulterated frustration with incompetent good guys--- heroes who are not that good at hero-things. (Luke subverts this trope marvelously because OH SHIT is he ever a good pilot and good with machines and that's been part of him from before he was Discovered As A Hero--- Lucas softpedaled that, IMO so it would sell to the Fanboy Crowd who want to believe that a Wise Old Mentor is just waiting to show up on their doorstep and Reveal Their Greatness, after which they will suddenly be given All The Abilities All Of Them, and NO TALENT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. It may be going unrecognized, but the radioactive spider is not going to bite you and make you a superhero; you have to be good at stuff first, and that takes both the yeast starter of talent and the will and environment to develop it, and that's hard shit, man, and it doesn't always mean that you get to be a hero; sometimes Obi-wan never comes and you're stuck on the moisture farm on Tatooine, and sometimes you actually have to apply to the Imperial Academy and deal with the social and ethical fucktuppery there for a while to get your training and then make some hard internal choices about whether you're willing to be Biggs Darklighter and throw away your cushy job and become a rebel, you know? Or be Han Solo and chuck it for your conscience but it takes a while to find what your conscience needs to latch onto. This is one of the things I love about the Iron Man movies: Tony Stark already had the talent, it was the broader social awareness that he needed to develop--- and honestly, he's one of those people I also see as getting fucked over systemically, because he was born into this Cold-War-era military-industrial-complex, and Obadiah Stane in particular had a lot of incentives to treat Tony like a mushroom and prevent him from getting any kind of clue at all. I could talk about that one for days, man, DAYS.)

Oh, wow, that was a lot! Basically, I am so, so with you. (Also. Fitzwilliam Darcy is a fucking introvert and possibly a geek in the sense of being really thinky but not necessarily gothically broody, just lost in ALL THE THOUGHTS and annoyed when someone wants to make small talk because it gets in the way of ALL THE THOUGHTS, and really I wouldn't be shocked if in our time period he had a hard-science doctorate and everyone knew better than to invite him to the non-geek parties anyway. To which Elizabeth would also be invited because she's a scientist too, much to her mother's despair because HOW WILL YOU EVER GET A HUSBAND OH WELL AT LEAST THERE ARE LOTS OF MEN IN SCIENCE AND THEY MAKE GOOD MONEY SOME OF THEM and Lizzie and Darcy would argue a lot at the parties. And possibly simply get married, in the words of C.S. Lewis, so as to go on doing it more conveniently. PEOPLE WOULD SELL TICKETS TO THEIR ARGUMENTS. IT WOULD PAY FOR THE BOOZE AT THE GEEK PARTIES. Darcy would be appalled but then Lizzie would say something too irresistible not to answer back. OH DEAR I THINK I JUST BRED A PLOTBUNNY ALL OVER YOUR JOURNAL.)

[beatrice_otter]

Oh, wow, that was a lot! Basically, I am so, so with you. (Also. Fitzwilliam Darcy is a fucking introvert and possibly a geek in the sense of being really thinky but not necessarily gothically broody, just lost in ALL THE THOUGHTS and annoyed when someone wants to make small talk because it gets in the way of ALL THE THOUGHTS, and really I wouldn't be shocked if in our time period he had a hard-science doctorate and everyone knew better than to invite him to the non-geek parties anyway. To which Elizabeth would also be invited because she's a scientist too, much to her mother's despair because HOW WILL YOU EVER GET A HUSBAND OH WELL AT LEAST THERE ARE LOTS OF MEN IN SCIENCE AND THEY MAKE GOOD MONEY SOME OF THEM and Lizzie and Darcy would argue a lot at the parties. And possibly simply get married, in the words of C.S. Lewis, so as to go on doing it more conveniently. PEOPLE WOULD SELL TICKETS TO THEIR ARGUMENTS. IT WOULD PAY FOR THE BOOZE AT THE GEEK PARTIES. Darcy would be appalled but then Lizzie would say something too irresistible not to answer back. OH DEAR I THINK I JUST BRED A PLOTBUNNY ALL OVER YOUR JOURNAL.)

... now, that is a modernAU I would actually read!

[anghraine]

It would be so cool! I like LBD and all, but I really wish someone would do something geekier.

OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

(In which Lizzie and Darcy are physics professors, and everyone else is... well, you'll see.)


The physics department mid-year party (no one dared call it a “Christmas” party, at least not in Dr. Bennet-Darcy’s hearing, unless that someone wished their ears to ring not with silver bells but with chastisements for cultural insensitivity) was (despite this caveat), one of the most popular and well-attended at the university. The graduate students (not normally considered the cream of the dating crop at a school which also boasted both a Division I football team and a nationally recognized cheerleading squad, though some of the latter were male as well) often found themselves besieged with romantic propositions at this time of year, solely for the purpose of the propositioners’ acquiring an invitation to said gathering. (Physics students are human: the gambit often worked, at least to an extent, and sometimes enduring, if not perhaps altogether successful, relationships even sprang from these unlikely beginnings.)

The success of the party was due to several factors. In the first place, Dean Bingley and his wife Jane were nothing if not gracious and genial hosts, able not merely to converse with everyone from his faculty and students to their dates (including the sort acquired through the above process, which one biology professor, the spouse of one of the physics department’s members, was heard to opine defeated the concept of assortive mating), and what was far more challenging the occasional would-be financial backer from the private or government sector; they made them feel at home. While Jane freely admitted that she was no kind of cook, she also had no shame in hiring the best of caterers to provide the backbone of the repast, and then those in the department who did have culinary talents were encouraged to provide as well. The alcohol was of equal quality and equal abundance, and--- due no doubt to the diversity of the guest list--- it was possible for nearly everyone in attendance to find some form of congenial company, if they so wished.

If they so wished; but the congeniality and largesse of their hosts nor that of their fellow guests formed the greatest attraction of the party. No; that honor belonged to the annual dispute between the members of the department’s star research team--- who happened not only to be husband and wife, but the best friend of the dean and his wife’s younger sister, respectively.

“And here we go again,” Jane Bennet-Bingley sighed to her husband as the noise of this year’s argument reached their ears from a room away.

“They got a late start this year, don’t you think, dear?” Dean Bingley agreed, sipping comfortably from his pilsner. (Early in the evening he always tried to drink beer to put the graduate students at ease, or so he said; his intimates knew it was as much to discourage the corporate backers, should there be any in attendance, from drinking him into debt. This year was mercifully free of same at present; several captains of industry had made an appearance and then a disappearance, leaving all and sundry free to amuse themselves as they would. It was likely that the annual edition of the Bennet-Darcy dispute had begun shortly thereafter.)

“They’ve made up for it; can you understand one word in five they’re saying, darling? Because I can’t.” Jane’s background was in the humanities; such a perfect fit was she as the dean’s wife, however, that even the more parochial and insular of the physicists in her husband’s domain were charitable enough to allow that even the best of souls (which Mrs. Bingley assuredly was) might be permitted a character flaw or two.

Since attaining the heights of academic administration, Dean Bingley had not set foot in a lab (and missed it but occasionally); he kept just current enough with the trends in his field (and more to the point those of his more junior colleagues) to ensure that any research to be conducted, any grant proposals to be written, or indeed any courses to be taught--- all reflected well on the department’s reputation for excellence in both research and teaching. (Though a capable administrator himself and hardly insensible to the exigencies of funding in higher education, Dean Bingley never did forget that the primary of function of an institution of learning was precisely that, an attitude that endeared him to the student body even as it occasionally vexed his more ambitious faculty.) He smiled benignly at his wife. “Is that due to the content, or the frequency? Because at that pitch the signal-to-noise ratio is problematic, to say the least.”

“Oh, dear,” Jane sighed, for another reason entirely. “Do you think it’ll affect this year’s pool?”

“Oh, hardly,” said her husband cheerfully, turning his head in the general direction from which the sounds of the argument could be heard. “So many of the graduate students brought football players this year, and Anne Winthrop--- your sister’s TA--- has the captain of the cheering squad with her; I should think they’ll be used to the volume at any rate.” He patted her hand. “It’ll more than cover expenses, dear.”

It was common knowledge that the betting pool on which of the Bennet-Darcy team would emerge victorious in this year’s argument went a ways to defray the expenses of the party (hence the willingness of many in the department to contribute). Less commonly known was the fact that any left over went to defray the expenses of a certain type of student: those young women of great scientific potential whose parents’ ability to contribute to their education as assessed by FAFSA obscured entirely the unwillingness of said parents to further their daughters’ education in a “traditionally male” field. Elizabeth Bennet-Darcy had fought that battle on her own; she was determined that no other student of quality should be forced to.

Jane smiled benignly. “Shall we go and observe, then?”

“As long as you don’t ask me to referee,” said her husband with a shudder that was only slightly feigned. Jane settled her hand on his arm companionably (an old-fashioned gesture to be sure, but her background was in the humanities) and they made their way from the more formal front room toward the rec room.

As expected, the wide-screen television (which depending on the crowd could end up showing anything from a current football game to an obscure science-fiction series, though with a rather more heavy loading toward the latter) was being ignored in favor of the annual argument. (Dean Bingley suspected his old friend of choosing the venue for precisely that purpose; Bill Darcy had been heard to complain more than once about the vapid quality of most televised entertainment, though he was willing to allow for the merit of perhaps one or two series, fictional or otherwise, in which the science was not wholly inaccurate. Lizzie laughed at him and promised to use headphones when marathoning Firefly.)

Jane’s attention, on the other hand, was taken up, at least momentarily, by yet another of her brothers-in-law.

It was a running joke that the Bennets had colonized the department. Mary, the middle sister, was the most efficient secretary the department had ever known despite a certain pomposity--- forgiven by all except the most oversensitive of the new hires and graduate students, in the name of having their paperwork handled with perfect dispatch if not always perfect courtesy. Kitty was generally considered to have the potential to be as brilliant as Elizabeth, if she would simply settle down and pick a major--- and cease to be distracted quite so much by each season’s crop of handsome young athletes.

And then there was Lydia. And quite to the point, her husband. George Wickham, at least, could be counted upon to make a quite salutary contribute to the annual betting pool, always in his sister-in-law’s favor; Jane knew that Elizabeth was of the opinion that this stemmed less from any familial feeling (or even fond memories of their undergraduate days, when everyone had expected them to become “an item”) than from his passionate loathing of Bill Darcy. (Jane supposed the old adage about how gratitude could sour a person held true in that case; only a select few on campus knew that Bill had been instrumental in obtaining George his present position in the campus ROTC command.)

Abruptly the room fell silent; Dean Bingley looked about him to be certain that the combatants (and their handicappers) hadn’t felt quashed by his presence--- but no, Lizzie and Bill had simply moved to expressing their debate with their tablet PCs, with the result that the members of the department crowded round them, jockeying for position over their shoulders, while the others began to drift away.

“Oh, please,” said Dean Bingley mock-scoldingly, “do go back to screaming; it’s much better entertainment for those of our guests who aren’t members of our arcane little family.”

“If they aren’t physicists, I don’t see why they should be here,” said Bill Darcy with his usual lack of tact. “And quite to the point I don’t see that I owe them any entertainment at all.”

“Think of it as education,” said Lizzie cheerfully. “I certainly consider it my professional duty to make certain that none of our graduate students leave the room without knowing how thoroughly wrong you are about---“

And they were off again. The Bingleys, satisfied that all was well, moved on to see to the comfort of the rest of their guests.

It was a typical department party, indeed; Wickham and Lydia stayed to the last, and the latter insisted on helping Jane “clean up”, mostly as a means of cadging leftovers (Jane never was sure how they managed to go through Wickham’s salary so quickly, but then Lydia’s inability to hold down a job might have contributed to the problem.) She left Lydia under Mary’s capable supervision (thus ensuring that they would at least have something worth taking to the local food bank the next day--- or rather later that morning, technically) and went to see to her other two sisters.

Kitty was asleep on the couch; her presence, to say nothing of the absence of her present amour, suggested that Bill had sent him packing with a few well-chosen words; it was understood that he considered one George Wickham in the family to be quite enough, thank you very much. Lizzie and Bill were leaning contentedly against one another by the fireplace. “Did you two have fun?” Jane said, contemplating the collection of the last few plates, then foregoing the pleasure of a clean(er) house for that of her sister’s company.

“Always.” Lizzie slipped her hand into Bill’s, and he smiled down at her, more obviously relaxed than he’d been all evening.

“Of course; you’ve persuaded the grad students of your thoroughly wrong-headed notions about---“

”The fact that a couple can argue, and more to the point, a woman argue with a man, and not only be his work partner but his life partner?” Lizzie asked archly, and kissed the tip of his nose.

“No,” said Bill Darcy, “on that subject, my love, you are entirely correct.”

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[anghraine]

Heh, this was fun. Thank you! My favourite was probably this:

Jane settled her hand on his arm companionably (an old-fashioned gesture to be sure, but her background was in the humanities)

<3

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

Oh, I'm soooooooo glad you liked it! And I'm glad you liked that line! (I suspect Jane of possibly being a SCAdian or Renfaire-goer on the weekends, to the delight of the subset of the student body that shares this pastime. Charles, of course, either joins her or not as the occasion warrants, and is happy either way because she's happy.)

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[anghraine]

OMG, that would be adorable. I've so far decided to my headcanon modern acaverse Charlotte is a gamer, but hadn't thought of Jane's hobbies. I can totally see it, though.

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

Oh, wow, I'm glad it makes sense. (And gamer!Charlotte, omg! Love it. Can only imagine what the acaverse's Mr. Collins thinks of that!)

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[anghraine]

What Collins doesn't know doesn't bother him. :)

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

Ha! And more to the point, doesn't bother Charlotte. (I suspect there is quite a lot that falls into the category of "What Collins doesn't know doesn't bother Charlotte." In canon or otherwise. LOL)

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[anghraine]

Exactly - and yup, that's exactly how I see canon!Collins/Charlotte, so it'd be a fun twist on it. I'm all about fun twists in moderns!

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

Hee, totally. (Now I actually wonder about All The Things that canon!Charlotte Does Not Tell canon!Collins. LOL)

this icon is strangely relevant for Charlotte

[anghraine]

I imagine a lot of it involves secretly corresponding with Elizabeth until the Grand Reconciliation, when she does it openly (but still keeps secrets, like: Elizabeth's opinion on everything. Darcy's opinion on most things. Elizabeth having political aspirations for Darcy. Also: Maria's flirtations, Mrs Bennet's undying hatred of them both, any illness Mr Bennet has, any time she doesn't take Lady Catherine's advice...).

Re: this icon is strangely relevant for Charlotte

[sathari]

Oh, yes. Also, Elizabeth. With political aspirations for Darcy.

...um, my reaction to that was actually to want to make a cup of tea, possibly with spirits therein, for Darcy? Which is a very concrete way of saying, "Oh, dear."

Re: this icon is strangely relevant for Charlotte

[anghraine]

Heeeeh. It would really be a partnership, because I can totally see Darcy wanting to Fix The World, Or At Least England, but he'd have to talk to people, and make alliances and mostly Family Duty compels him, while Elizabeth is much less of an idealist but a born hostess and it's like political tag-teaming! (I am convinced that Darcy's name is a pretty strong political allusion, so. But also that their combined abilities would make them awesome at it, and Elizabeth thinks it's great fun besides.)

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[beatrice_otter]

Yay! This was fun. I particularly liked the last lines.

Re: OKAY HERE HAVE COMMENT-FIC!

[sathari]

Glad you liked--- you and anghraine incorriged me, after all! And the last lines were the funnest part to write, what with canon!Elizabeth having thought of her and Darcy's marriage as potentially being an ideal (mostly when she's moping about how she Threw It All Away, but), and Darcy being, as anghraine pointed out, the most socially liberal character in the original (being all "Lydia is better 'ruined' than married to a jerk" and all).

[sathari]

It's, um, lurking downthread a little if you want to have a look. (You and anghraine successfully incorriged me, you see. :) )

[anghraine]

Yes, I think the whole thing with woobification, that a lot of the denunciations overlook, is exactly what villains get it. It's not the one-dimensionally evil ones, no matter how hot they are. (When they are hot, a lot of times it only makes people hate them more. One of my minor annoyances in Austen fandom was that if there was any hint of unsavoury shenanigans going on anywhere, people would be all OMG IT'S WICKHAM HAAAAAATE, and come on, guys, Wickham isn't an evil mastermind, he's just a douche.)

And wow, the competence kink explains - that explains a lot about how I've been rethinking villains, because I rarely liked them before, but I tend to now, and I also ... there's a lot of contempt for heroes being ~chosen~ and ~special~, but I like them special. Not sparkly wonderful at everything, but I really do prefer it when they are legitimately talented and potentially very powerful. I love that Luke, with at most a few months of formal training, and whatever he cobbled together on his own, is not grandstanding when he threatens Jabba with total destruction, just offering a deal-threat. I love Harry Potter talking to snakes and driving awhile a bazillion dementors at thirteen and resisting the Imperius and later casting it correctly on his first try. I really like Denethor and Faramir reading minds.

But a lot of times, you have to go for the villains for that, because it's like people feel that the only way for there to be real suspense in the hero-villain conflict is if the hero is utterly outclassed - particularly, completely mediocre hero/epic badass villain. That's one way, but there are others. LOTR does it really well, I think - there's the near-impossible odds with unimaginably powerful offscreen Sauron and the faltering hobbits, there are demi-gods fighting other demi-gods, superpowered humans fighting orcs/humans/undead sorcerers, even people like Éowyn who go up against considerably more powerful foes, but the narrative still insists that they're special and awesome and hardcore.

And with SW, like you say, Luke's arc is ultimately not of an ordinary kid, just like you and me, no really overcoming impossible foes by the purity of his heart (though I agree that it tries to appeal on that level), but a boy who is not ordinary, who has never been ordinary, who knows it perfectly well and is frustrated by his mentors, who all know it too and are afraid of what he's capable of. And ROTJ (and ESB, really) is very insistent that, yes, he is capable of it, he could be a galaxy-crushing villain, and even if he isn't, he has plenty of sheer power - the central anxiety there is less "how can Luke possibly win?" than "what if he wins the wrong way?" And of course it's doubled in Vader, likewise divided between his best/worst selves, and acting out that conflict in the duel. And that conflict, where two powerful people struggle through crises of loyalty and conscience, is generally regarded as the heart and strength of the movie, while the 'oh noes impossible odds' is ... yeah. Other ways can work!

And all of that is to say, yes, talent kink all the way! And also, that often, the villain is the most badass person around (when not the only one), AND it's clear that they could easily have not been a villain had circumstances been different (sometimes only very slightly different!). Of course people are going to wish they had been different and all that awesome were being used for good instead of evil.

[sathari]

Exactly! Not the 1-D villains, and for me especially not the particularly externally-privileged villains either, unless they show me some kind of soul somewhere. (AND LOLWHUT, you mean there are people somewhere who somehow think of Wickham as like, an evil genius or something? Because really NO. He's a selfish, self-involved doucherag who does not think beyond his next bit of fun; that's the whole problem with him. If he'd had a lick of sense, he never in life would have taken Lydia with him.)

Oooh, I'm so glad the competence-kink makes sense of some things for you! Competence-and-talent kink FTW!!! Totally with you on that's what makes Luke and Harry awesome, too.

And I think there's a... thing... with both of them that explains the commercial success of both series, which is that Rowling and Lucas both shaded the stories such that a superficial reading allows for the Everyman thing, but then you look closely at Luke, or Harry (and Leia! And Hermione!) and OMG they are awesome in their own rights and even without a grand heroic narrative that's true. (and Han is awesome too. That's one place Rowling fell down, IMO, because Ron Weasley is a fucking everyman and just UGH.)

I think you're right that part of it is that need to set up insurmountable obstacles for the hero, and having a weak or everyman-ish hero is a way to do that; it's also not an angle I'd thought of before. (I'd always blamed it on playing to the lowest-common-denominator of the intended audience, you know--- in a way that all too painfully feeds the Nice Guy Syndrome and similar glitchery.)

And Eowyn! OMG Eowyn, and her narrative arc, and what for me is kind of a PTSD-induced response to Faramir, that just rips my heart right out.

And, yeah, Luke's arc is so much more interesting to me, that talent-development arc, and "now that you can use your abilities, HOW do you use them?" And that the same questions, ultimately, were the ones plaguing Anakin, but he got such BAD answers from the world around him. (Because the Jedi's answers were all about fostering their little codependent political relationship with the Senate, but Anakin had just enough outside experience--- HELLO SLAVE OF THE HUTTS MUCH?--- to know that "people in power" and "good people" aren't necessarily correlated and that the status quo isn't always okay, but he didn't have anyone giving him anything else to believe in, except sort of, with Padme and their family, except that of course it's happening at the worst time possible and now he has to worry about her dying--- because on the one hand, I think it's the first time in a while he's had a goal or a role that he understands and has had modeling for (as you said elsewhere, it appears that Shmi was a pretty good parent, at least for the young child Anakin was, so he knows what that looks like in a concrete way, whereas the signals he's getting from the Jedi Order are pretty messed up even without Palpatine's unhelpful help in the mix) and on the other it's being threatened by all these outside forces. The difference for Luke is that he had IMO a stabler growing-up experience--- Owen and Beru may not have been the most overtly affectionate people in the galaxy, a moisture farmer's life might have been really hard, Luke might have not had his dreams encouraged, but I don't think there was anything like the ongoing stress and threat that a slave would have lived with. (Reading between the lines: Anakin would have had to worry about things like him or Shmi being killed or sold away from each other, and some of the onus of dealing with that would have been on him, I suspect, from a pretty young age--- "win this race or I'll sell your mother!", that kind of thing.) So Luke is a far more stable creature when his big heroic choices and challenges come in.

I think that's something Yoda and Obi-wan didn't get, either: the kind of stability that a family-style upbringing, done at least tolerably well, can give. It won't get you emotionless devoted servants of the Jedi Order, of course, but I think Luke is in some ways inoculated against the Dark Side in ways that those dear little brainwashed moppets-with-lightsabers that Yoda was used to training weren't, because he's had choices, and feelings, and wants, not all of which have been met, all along, and he's learned how he personally has to wrestle with that. Temptation isn't so bad after you've actually fought it and won a few times, and--- I think you've said this elsewhere--- Luke also understands about duty; he doesn't run off with Ben the moment Ben waves a shiny lightsaber and a shinier Grand Destiny at him. (That for me is maybe the moment that Ben should have known to trust that Luke wouldn't fall to the Dark Side, because that boy knows how to wrangle duty versus personal preference. Sadly, I suspect--- retconnishly, anyway--- that Ben simply thought, oh, shit, another generation of overly-attached Skywalkers; we're doomed. And also that Ben, what with being an Old Republic Jedi and all, couldn't understand fully the idea of that kind of bone-deep duty that wasn't to a galaxy-spanning abstract ideal. He had flashes of it, in his willingness to defy the Jedi Council to fulfill Qui-gon's last wish, but I don't think he understood how powerful a force for good that kind of attachment could be.) And, oh, wow, was that ever a tangent.

Back on point: I think you've definitely hit on something about how it's the internal struggles of talented/competent people that kind of make the story, and that a lot of what looks like woobiefication is, "Let's wander around in this process." And sadly, all too often, the really competent people are the villains or at least the antiheroes. (Darcy does play to that type, a little, in that he's got the smarter-than-Bingley-but-also-less-likeable thing going on.) (The whole implicit-demonization-of-talent/glorification-of-the-ordinary is another hobbyhorse of mine, btw!)

Darcy!

[anghraine]

Darcy is such an introvert. I will never not laugh over the scene where he works himself up to talking to Elizabeth by listening to her talk to other people, and after the scene where Elizabeth and Fitzwilliam tell him to try harder (and it's pretty obvious that he can't be bothered to even try to be more pleasant), I love that in the end Elizabeth is all I MUST PROTECT HIM HE IS A DELICATE FLOWER. And he keeps trying to flirt by philosophical argument and talk about books and he's always buying them - and he expresses affection for his sister via interior decorating, like redecorating her parlour and hanging her drawings in his art collection. So yeah, I'm with you on Darcy leaning strongly to the adorkable side of the spectrum.

I really like that idea! I am so tired of modern!Darcy virtually always being a CEO, or occasionally some other high-powered profession that involves a lot of getting along with people. Part of what makes moderns interesting is that the characters' situations aren't quite as externally determined; the girls can get educations and careers, the men aren't stuck in the narrow gentry/clergy/military paths with little room for personal preference. If Darcy were in business, I think he'd much more likely be attracted to something R&D-related, but you never see that.

My favourite idea is still academic!Darcy, however - a bunch of my friends and I brainstormed through that a few years ago, and yeah, I imagine it'd be basically like your plotbunny, haha. Though not hard science; I imagined Darcy as a literary theorist or a linguist, I can't remember which. I imagine that Elizabeth would be more ... she's not exactly the driven type in canon, it'd be a job that happens to interest her, while whatever Darcy did would be a srs bznz vocation. So he'd be off in his own head and then omg she's been flippant about Derrida and it's on. So, slightly different geek parties, but yeah, same adorable dynamic. (Also, it annoys me that modern!Darcy always seems to be written as incredibly old-fashioned in his hobbies and ideas, even though he isn't in his own time. So in my headcanon, Darcy is not some snobby traditional-canon-or-gtfo guy, but a snobby post-structuralist or something.)

Re: Darcy!

[sathari]

Yes, yes, DARCY IS A BIG OLD DORK. IMO this is what makes him loveable throughout the book. Just, you know, DORK DORK DORK and as a reader I'm facepalming fondly through the awkward bits.

Oh, my God, Darcy as a CEO. Darcy. As. A CEO. I think my brain just broke, excuse me, I'll be over here putting the pieces back together. Because no. No no no no no no. So much no. Definitely an R&D guy, or if he did end up in corporate maybe the geek with the basement software startup who did a Bill Gates, but mostly NO.

I'm so glad you like the idea! I hope you also like the fic I posted; I went with hard-science for both of them, more or less on a whim, but I also really like your idea about lit-geekery!

[tree]

(Or: If you think Darcy is a hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul, I think you're wrong. I don't, however, think that you're stupid

oh, i do. unapologetically. well, maybe not the sex god thing. there's no canonical evidence that he's not a sex god. ;)

[anghraine]

I had a terrible moment where I thought you were saying that you unapologetically agree with that particular interpretation and just went BUT TREE I ONLY WANT TO LOVE YOU. *phew*

I will admit, I'm willing to accept Darcy and Elizabeth as sex deities. The rest is a pile of DNW, but I am sadly convinced that otherwise intelligent people tend to be terribly wrong about Austen.

[kaz]

I am here solely to mention that because my mind was fixed on Avengers fandom when I read this I went "....what" when I reached your description of Darcy. And now I can't stop trying to make sense of hot-tempered, impulsive, fiercely authoritarian, debonair, alpha male, sex god who constantly broods over the torment of his soul Darcy, so THANK YOU FOR THAT MENTAL IMAGE. I am happy to share.

[anghraine]

ahahahahahaha. You're welcome :)

[rebeccation]

anghraine, you have the best people making the best comments on this post. I'm sick and was having a crappy day, but it's looking a lot better. Also, plot bunnies.

[anghraine]

Well, thank you very much. My f-list is quiet but awesome, and I'm very glad they've improved your day! I hope it does get better.

And yes, also, plotbunnies. *sigh* The academic AU would be really fun, though!