Anghraine

I reblogged a video clip of a bunch of black horses walking and then galloping along a beautiful beach and tagged it:

#dol amroth? dol amroth

Normally I just vaguely describe text posts I reblogged on a certain date, but this one really cannot be paraphrased:



[Text: Tumblr user problempippin posted on 15 Jan 2019 that "pippin is buff and the reason why boromir and other men of gondor describe him as childlike is bc in gondor all children are fucking shredded"]

I added:

#finally quality gondor content

[ETA 5/24/2024: this was mostly but not entirely tongue-in-cheek on my part! Tolkien is pretty clear that even Third Age Dúnedain are bigger and stronger than other people, including Elves, and their standards of physical strength are pretty distinct. I could believe that kids in Minas Tirith are shredded :P]

Locations Tolkien associated Minas Tirith with:

• Rome
• Florence
• Byzantium

Locations Tolkien associated the rest of Gondor with:

• various spots in Italy
• Troy
• ancient Egypt

Locations Tolkien did not associate Gondor with:

• France
• England
• literally anywhere in northern Europe

Tagged: #he was actively annoyed at the assumption that gondor is in some way northern #and yet it's inescapable #free me from my suffering!!!

[ETA 4/6/2024: I am pretty sure this was most directly inspired by people trying to connect the "forgotten men" in Gondor, mentioned as the ancestors of a short and "swarthy" population in the densely populated Gondorian province of Lebennin, with Britain. But also just by Tolkien fandom's obsession with the idea of his work as a mythology for England, an idea he explicitly said he rejected as ridiculous, while ignoring his numerous unambiguous statements that he was inspired by other regions and languages as well, and that he very clearly said that Gondor's inspirations in particular were all Mediterranean rather than northern, and moreover that the original seat of evil in Middle-earth was in the north.]

chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

I talked a few days ago, under f-lock, about some painful RL experiences around being perceived as deeply boring and incapable of feeling pain (or feeling most emotions, really). And I wanted to make an addendum to that, one that I don’t think really needs the f-lock.

I’ve made many complaints about various fandoms + multifandom spaces and trends over the years, and I still consider most of those complaints valid. Nevertheless, fandom has typically been a much less bleak environment for me.

If someone in fandom finds me boring, they usually do not tell me so, or treat me in a way that makes this apparent. They simply don’t interact with me. And people who do follow me or interact with me don’t do it because of my family’s involvement, or because I’m a package deal with more interesting/attractive/charismatic friends, or because of some other figure in my meatspace life at all. In fandom, none of that matters. At least, it hasn't for me.

Even the followers who don’t particularly care about me as a person are following me for my own sake in some capacity, rather than for the sake of someone else. Sure, some of these will leave if I get super into something they find dull, or stop posting or whatnot, but their interest in my opinions about the thing they’re into is still about my opinions of that thing, or how I express my opinions, or something about my online persona.

And there are also people who don’t share my preoccupation with a current fixation, or don’t find my take on it interesting, and are thus kind of bored, but they like me personally enough to stick around, anyway. This doesn’t usually trigger my “oh no I’m being boring” issues, because if they’re invested enough to stay, despite disinterest in my current thing, they’re evidently still engaged at some level with me.

Beyond that, people in fandom don’t typically lecture me on my general demeanor. It’s happened, but not often. In fact, while fellow fans sometimes express respect for my—let’s say, often rather severe manner of presenting myself and my opinions, they don’t generally act like it is required of me to be that way or that it somehow precludes a capacity to feel. We’re all in fandom because we feel things!

And that’s been very powerful for me. I wasn’t diagnosed as autistic until I was well into my 20s, while I’ve been directly or indirectly excluded or distanced from many RL social circles ever since I was a child. I’ve certainly been treated as if I and the things I care about are objectively dull and emotionally unengaging.

But throughout my entire adult life, there has always been one glaring exception to this. There really was a social sphere in which my experience of others and of myself could be different. There was fandom.

For all of online fandom’s many, many flaws, this has been part of my experience of it from even before I was an adult—in fact, from the time that I made my first post. At the time, I was extremely shy and anxious, so I lurked a lot, and was very worried about breaking some rule somewhere if I actually said anything on the big scary Internet. But I had feelings. I was in high school and I had such feelings.

Many of these were Pride and Prejudice feelings. In high school, I started collecting copies of P&P just so I could read the introductions/editorial content and see what other people thought about it, since nobody I knew IRL cared about it the way I did. This was both my first step into academia proper and a sort of proto-fannish activity. But my Austen feelings were not actually the ones that propelled me into breaking my self-imposed Internet silence and detachment from online communities. A lot of Austen fandom didn’t really seem like my people. I was also into Harry Potter, but HP fandom similarly did not seem like my people.

Actually, speaking of boring other people, I’m going to be really self-indulgent and rewind even further for THE FULL SAGA of what brought me into fandom.

( Read more... )

irresistible-revolution responded to this post:

😭😭😭😭

I replied:

ETERNAL MOOD!!

sulfin-evend responded to the April 13th 2019 post here:

The idea that Elrond is against Gondor somehow is a reoccurring idea in the tumblr fandom. So I went back to reread the Council of Elrond to make sense of it, and I can barely find one phrase that could be considered anti Gondor. Am I missing something?

I replied:

I think we must be interpreting Elrond’s description of modern Gondor very differently. For me, going on about how they’ve dwindled from imperial heights through intermarriage with inferior races is high octane Yikes and certainly negative towards modern Gondor. Especially given that it’s said with a Gondorian right there.

(It’s partly Tolkien being Tolkien, but only partly IMO: we later hear that the inclusion of non-Númenóreans in Gondor has contributed to the strength of Gondor’s people and is a way in which the Stewards were wiser than the kings.)

They also said:

Love the commentary on the names. Also i love that Elured is supposed to be a Taliska and Sindarin mixed name. The half elves do honour the human side of their heritage

I replied:

Thanks! I think Tolkien ultimately decided Taliska had died out by that point (since “The Problem of Ros” didn’t work out). But yeah, the peredhil are pretty consistently respectful towards their human heritage.

They responded to this post:

Headcanon; Gondor is full of various languages and bilingual people. Everyone knows Westron, but some speak Sindarin or one of many native ancient languages, words from dead languages come up in regional dialects.

I replied:

Total agreement! We know there are at least some place-names that have elements derived from indigenous languages, so it’s possible to extrapolate from that, and of course, many of the soldiers in Minas Tirith shout at each other in Sindarin. When we hear that people burst out singing in “all the ways of the City,” I like to imagine that it’s not just musical styles but all these different languages at once.

[ETA 3/18/2024: In the interests of full disclosure, they did later respond again re: Elrond and Gondor, but I find Elrond's characterization of modern Gondor so intrinsically indefensible that I had no interest in engaging further.]

An anon asked:

Do you have any family trees for children and marriages in the Fourth Age? Or any other Tolkien expanded family trees?

I answered the first question here, but I also do have a Grand Unified Headcanon family tree here, with red lines where generations are skipped. There are a lot of stories/story concepts embedded into the tree, some inspired by or dependent on canon, and some just “hey, I’ve had an idea,” so … feel free to ask about anyone on it!

Tagged: #i know it's ... uh. a lot #but there it is!

Petty whining:

The movieverse’s generic fantasy crown of Gondor is super inescapable and … /sigh.

I get that the canon helmet-crown is much less generic fantasy crown, but that’s fine? Gondor is allowed to have a distinctive aesthetic???

It’s one thing in movieverse art, but it shows up in a lot of things that ostensibly aren’t, and bleh.

Tagged: #i remain convinced that tumblr tolkien fandom is mainly movieverse+silm fanon fandom #like #people are allowed to have fun in different ways etc etc #but i'm going to sit here grumbling in my trashcan about it