Anghraine

My icon has grey eyes and black hair just for Tolkien :P

So. I generally dislike Tolkien fandom's "canonicity discourse" (yes, I'm doing it anyway) and the idea of imposing a specific ranking of texts. That said, it's occurred to me that one of the reasons I feel deeply out of step with Tolkien fandom is that The Silmarillion (as in, the published book, not the in-story accounts) is on a drastically different level of canonicity for me than basically everything else with JRR Tolkien's name on it.

I don't dislike The Silmarillion or anything. I quite enjoy it! But for me, it shows its age—not in ~a man of his time~ sense, but in an editorial sense. Christopher Tolkien did an enormous amount of spectacular editorial work over the course of his life and we are deeply indebted to him. But I think he did pretty clearly get better at it over time, and particularly at presenting his father's mass of notes and documents and so on in a way that makes the texts as accessible as possible. At the same time, in later texts, he clearly differentiates between actual words JRRT wrote (whether in the main body or in notes) and his (CT's) own understanding and explanations as JRRT's confidant and literary heir. I do give a lot of credence to Christopher Tolkien's understanding of his father's work, actually, and I deeply respect (and am grateful for) CT's efforts to carefully and clearly explain things like dates of composition (and how this can be determined), direct context, how a given point relates to his father's broader work, etc, throughout these texts.

(Tangent: Facebook keeps recommending defensive Jackson stans griping about how Christopher Tolkien just didn't get his father's work like Jackson did and was so horribly ungrateful to the filmmakers and such an inferior scholar blahblah for the crime of disliking the films. FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE!! I am not uncritical of Christopher Tolkien, and neither was Christopher Tolkien, but I think we owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to him. Also, even to me, his response to the films seemed harsh at the time, but at this point, I think he was pretty much right, anyway, and correctly judged the films' impact and reflection of pop culture understanding of JRRT's work.)

So what is my issue with the published Silmarillion?

( Read more... )

There are various timeline glitches in Middle-earth, but I can never decide whether my favorite is:

a) Arvedui claimed the throne of Gondor as not only the son-in-law of the previous king of Gondor, but as heir of Isildur … while his own father was still alive

or

b) The Númenórean fleet that saved the Elves is supposed to be sent by Tar-Minastir, but was actually sent under Tar-Telperiën.

Tagged: #hatred or love? hmm can't choose

[ETA 4/23/2024: I don't hate either of these facts, to be clear; I hate Arvedui and love Telperiën.]

jubaah responded to this post:

sgbsdhjndssdb we are coming from different directions, for some reason I assumed it would be all númenor - so when i saw lindon & misty mountains thrown in there i was like aaah... okay... :'( okay

I replied:

Oh yeah, I can see that! It's going to be a big story, whatever it is. I didn't quite dare to hope for/dread a full treatment of Númenor, so 'breathtaking' has kind of got me... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But getting Lindon too...

jubaah responded:

YEAH :DDD

steinbecks said:

i want to see the drowning of numenor SO BAD

I replied:

You undoubtedly will!!!!

incognitajones said:

my brain right now is that Michael Scott gif on a loop... it's really happening!!!

brynnmclean said:

I am excited and terrified!

chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

jubaah responded to this post:

That has been my hc for so long i forgot it wasn’t actual canon tbh… I tend to imagine Númenoreans looking like whatever in general, but the people who go on to become Gondor to have the same Beorianelvish look…

I replied:

Yeah! I mean, I do think that the line about how Númenóreans gradually became near-indistinguishable from Elves refers to all Númenóreans, but that the specifically Bëorian, startling-to-other-Númenóreans variant is what’s going to lead to the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor.

(& I also think this is a great excuse to headcanon random Peredhil just being born and mingling with the locals in Andunie ;P)

I’ve always thought it interesting that “The Mariner’s Wife” places such an emphasis on Erendis looking strange (in a beautiful way, but strange) to other people on Númenor. Aldarion thinks she’s an Elf (from Tol Eressëa, I think?) until he gets close up, and we hear later that other Númenóreans are struck by her appearance, because it is “of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [Erendis’s father] came of the House of Bëor.”

So it’s pretty much wholly attributed to her being Bëorian. It turns out that her whole region was predominantly settled by Bëorians, so it seems to be a regional thing.

The physical difference between Hadorians and Bëorians is usually presented in terms of hair color, but … it’s hard for me to see the other Númenóreans as so agog at someone simply having dark hair. To me it sounds like there’s something more, idk, substantial in the difference of appearance—something which, to go by Aldarion’s initial reaction to her, is at least somewhat reminiscent of the Elves who visit Númenor (presumably Eldar). Of course, Bëorians looking somewhat (or in some cases, very much) like Eldar is not new, but it adds to the association there.

This is doubly interesting because the Faithful primarily came from the same region and thus, it’s very possible that the Númenórean ‘look’ among their descendants would be more like Erendis than what was typical of most Númenóreans.

I’m not sure what Erendis does look like tbh, but I do think her look—and by extension, Bëorians’ and most of the Faithful’s—would be pretty distinctively different. 

Tagged: #i imagine that the transition to númenóreans /generally/ looking like elves is still ongoing at this point #but once it really takes hold most númenóreans look like vanyar and faithful like noldor #which is honestly kind of hilarious to me given the uhhhh cultural dynamics there #but what that difference /looks/ like beyond coloring is still up for grabs

sunshine-states responded to this post:

Would that make Imperial Rome Numenor?

Possibly, though it could also be early (or earlier) Gondor. Tolkien says of it:


He also says that in ROTK:


Tagged: #to be fair he also described contemporary gondor as italian and egyptian so it's not just one thing #but byzantine gondor is definitely within the range of his descriptions!

I reblogged this and said:

Four years later, I’m getting notes on this for some reason, and … :’)

Tagged: #i'm so fond of her!!! #and am not in the habit of expecting other people to be fond of ofcs who don't even have fic