anghraine | Entries tagged with ch: gandalf

My icon has grey eyes and black hair just for Tolkien :P

So. I generally dislike Tolkien fandom's "canonicity discourse" (yes, I'm doing it anyway) and the idea of imposing a specific ranking of texts. That said, it's occurred to me that one of the reasons I feel deeply out of step with Tolkien fandom is that The Silmarillion (as in, the published book, not the in-story accounts) is on a drastically different level of canonicity for me than basically everything else with JRR Tolkien's name on it.

I don't dislike The Silmarillion or anything. I quite enjoy it! But for me, it shows its age—not in ~a man of his time~ sense, but in an editorial sense. Christopher Tolkien did an enormous amount of spectacular editorial work over the course of his life and we are deeply indebted to him. But I think he did pretty clearly get better at it over time, and particularly at presenting his father's mass of notes and documents and so on in a way that makes the texts as accessible as possible. At the same time, in later texts, he clearly differentiates between actual words JRRT wrote (whether in the main body or in notes) and his (CT's) own understanding and explanations as JRRT's confidant and literary heir. I do give a lot of credence to Christopher Tolkien's understanding of his father's work, actually, and I deeply respect (and am grateful for) CT's efforts to carefully and clearly explain things like dates of composition (and how this can be determined), direct context, how a given point relates to his father's broader work, etc, throughout these texts.

(Tangent: Facebook keeps recommending defensive Jackson stans griping about how Christopher Tolkien just didn't get his father's work like Jackson did and was so horribly ungrateful to the filmmakers and such an inferior scholar blahblah for the crime of disliking the films. FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE!! I am not uncritical of Christopher Tolkien, and neither was Christopher Tolkien, but I think we owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to him. Also, even to me, his response to the films seemed harsh at the time, but at this point, I think he was pretty much right, anyway, and correctly judged the films' impact and reflection of pop culture understanding of JRRT's work.)

So what is my issue with the published Silmarillion?

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Still thinking about the Faramir AU, and:

I think the Moria section would wind out in basically the same way, though Gandalf’s death would hit Faramir harder than Boromir.

Faramir canonically has reservations about Lothlórien and Galadriel, so how does that go down? Especially the mental examination bit, which I think would be quite odd for him as someone who is more accustomed to being the person who sees part of what’s going on in the hearts and thoughts of others, and less often the person who is seen. (Though he would certainly have some experience of the latter w/ Denethor.)

What about, you know, the Ring? IIRC it gets stronger the closer it gets to Mount Doom, so the temptation he faced in canon would actually be considerably stronger than what he faces here, but a one-time experience where this is an ongoing, grinding thing. I’ve seen it suggested that he’d still be the weakest link, but I think he could resist it as much as any of the non-hobbits, but that’s still only so far, and his canon response in TTT suggests that he’d understand that.

What ultimately separates the Fellowship? Faramir wouldn’t be going off to take the Ring, so that whole set piece would work differently. I don’t think there’s reason to assume he’d die; him going would make very little overall difference in that case, except to possibly make things worse, and part of the point of him being meant to go is that it would make a significant difference, for the better. I think my idea in the original Faramir-goes-to-Rivendell fic I wrote as a teenager was that he perceives more clearly than the others that the Fellowship can’t hold out indefinitely, and privately tells Frodo so. Frodo then decides to go alone. These days … hmm.

Does Faramir join the hunt for Merry and Pippin, assuming that that pretty much follows canon? He’d want to get back to Gondor, but I think he’d always do what he considers the ethical thing, so it’s not hard to imagine him joining them. He’s also a Ranger and very tall; I don’t think he’d hold them back speed-wise. So that would go pretty similarly.

And then, Rohan!

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While I’m at it, some thoughts on Faramir at Rivendell:

- All my thoughts are underpinned by my firm belief that Faramir was, rightly, the preferred choice of whoever sent the dreams (Irmo?) and things would have worked out better if he had gone. So I’m not here for things like “Faramir would have died on the journey because Boromir is tougher and ultimately all fallen into ruin”

- In fact, I think it’s possible that Faramir would have made the journey more easily, because although Boromir is tougher than he is, it’s entirely believable that Faramir (who is repeatedly described as a master of beasts and, in canon, can keep his horse under control in the face of five Ringwraiths) is the better horseman and wouldn’t have lost his horse on the way—

- allowing for the possibility that Faramir is already at Rivendell when the others arrive (it’s also possible, for convenience, that these things basically cancel out and he gets there at the same time as Boromir, but I think it’s more interesting if we look for differences).

- If the former, there’s time for significant interactions with Elrond, Bilbo, random Elves … how does that go? Especially since Faramir canonically thinks it’s dangerous to have too much to do with Elves these days.

- Pippin registers Faramir as vaguely Elvish in canon, and also in canon, Legolas later recognizes and respects that Faramir’s uncle is partially Elvish. Does that hold for Faramir or is he more associated with Númenor/Aragorn/Gandalf(!) like Denethor?

- Specifically, how does the “the blood of Númenor is spent in Gondor and the country is in decay” stuff work with a Gondorian Dúnadan right there in whom the blood of Númenor is clearly not spent and who believes that the integration of non-Númenóreans strengthened his people, but also believes that the Dúnedain are permanently fading? Does it come up?

- Gandalf is eager to consult with Faramir in ROTK and stressed about him not being in Minas Tirith yet. How does he react to reaching Rivendell and finding Faramir, of all people, just … there? And brought by a prophetic dream? How does Faramir react to Mithrandir showing up?

- Really curious how the psychic powers possessed by quite a few characters here, including Faramir, play out generally.

- Pippin’s first impression of Faramir is affected by a) Faramir having just risen above a harrowing experience and b) reminding him of Aragorn in his (A’s) ‘high’ moments; at this point, unless I’m misremembering, Pippin would have little/no experience of either, so I’m also curious about how much of his canon first impression would be present in the AU.

- Similarly, I’m curious if Sam would associate Faramir with wizards without the trial of the Ring. What does he think of Faramir’s ‘quality’? And vice-versa?

- Really curious about how Faramir and Aragorn interact without Faramir being unconscious and dying and the whole mystical kingly … everything going on, especially given Faramir’s canonical skepticism in TTT. I tend to assume that Imrahil gave Aragorn some background on Faramir’s situation in ROTK, but with no Imrahil present and no or very few preconceptions, what do they think of each other?

That’s not even getting into, uh, most of the plot, just Faramir literally being in Rivendell. But, obviously, there are plenty of things to think about through the rest of LOTR, too!

Tagged: #faramir #elrond #bilbo baggins #(i mean. faramir and bilbo interacting is just... amazing) #(though i think i'm most interested in faramir+elrond and faramir+aragorn) #i think one of the things that makes the au so interesting #is that lotr is so tightly plotted that any change creates major effects #but it's also really clear that there's some happier alternate scenario with faramir that was supposed to happen #but it takes some doing to figure out how to make it end up there without adding in a bunch of changes that don't follow from it #...none of which this post was about but anyway

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Still thinking of how Denethor and Faramir are explicitly compared with Gandalf … and even Gandalf describes himself and Denethor as ‘two … terrible old men’ … and in Faramir’s case, his wizardliness is by contrast to Frodo’s Elvishness …

I just. They.

Tagged: #adkjf sam doesn't even know he's saying 'frodo is elvish but you have a maia vibe' but HE IS and it's just ????!!! #look. gandalf's powers may be dialed down from olórin's but he is still a freaking maia #and gandalf lumping himself in with denethor??? i am compromised

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dragoness_e responded to this post:

I think that Faramir knew the whole time: he was delirious with fever when Denethor laid him on the pyre, not unconscious. The knowledge filtered through fever delirium that his father tried to kill him probably worsened the Nazgul-induced despair that Aragorn had to pull him out of. Remember one of the things Aragorn said contributed to his critical condition? “Grief over his father’s mood”. I think Faramir just gave up after Denethor tried to kill him, and that’s why his condition was so bad that only Aragorn of the line of Luthien could heal him. By the time he’s up and meeting Eowyn, he’s already dealt with this, or he wouldn’t be up and about.

I replied:

Hmm, I tend to disagree. I don’t think we really have much of an idea of what Faramir was aware of while he was delirious or what he remembered later. I’ve always taken the reference to grief for Denethor’s mood to refer to the causes of Faramir’s sickness generally, not the final phase of it (the direct context is explaining how Faramir became so sick in the first place, IIRC?).

And unless I’m misremembering, Gandalf is the one who says—after Aragorn’s healing—that Faramir shouldn’t be told the full story of what happened until after he’s fully recovered, even though he’ll have to find out that Denethor is dead. So Gandalf at least thinks that Faramir missed or isn’t going to retain the details.

Éowyn is also up and about while plainly not having dealt with her issues, so I don’t think we can assume that Faramir is A-OK about nearly being murdered by his father just because he’s moving around and personable. I mean, maybe he completely got over it in a few days, but I don’t think we have anything like certain evidence of it.

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I genuinely hadn't remembered that I'd already talked about the peculiar subordination of Faramir's arc to other characters' once Denethor is dead—I made a post about it not long ago, with no memory of saying in the previous crosspost:

it does seem like the Denethor-Faramir tension just dies with Denethor and that Faramir’s role as a character is thereafter subordinated to Aragorn’s and Éowyn’s, in different ways.

Something that's both intriguing and frustrating about Tolkien's treatment of Faramir in the book is the extent to which the narrative structure around him is very "woobie" in some ways while also utterly denying his ... um, woobiedom in others.

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It’s occurred to me that two of my least favorite scenes in two very different adaptations are … basically the same.

(Predictably, ranting negativity re: Jackson’s LOTR and Davies’s P&P under the cut)

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I posted the second chapter of we also are daughters of the great and tagged it:

#lmao it took five years to write these 3000 words #i was going to make footnotes for all the canon references but i'm too lazy rn #i'll probably go back and edit that in later though

Later that day, I added (twenty-six) footnotes and said:

#let no one say that i don't take my fic deadly seriously

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I reblogged this graphic for Fíriel (f!Faramir), which I originally posted on 25 October 2015:

I too am a healer, and I say to you: it may be that you were born for this hour, Fíriel daughter of Denethor.

Rule 63!Faramir, from the young daughter of the Steward, to the fey princess of Minas Tirith, to the regent of Gondor.

2020 addition:

I made this five years ago and I still have a) a ton of feelings about this verse and b) yet to write most of it.

Tagged: #it's definitely become a ot3 in my head though #i was re-reading some of my scraps and drafts and just. consumed with emotions #one scrap is just entirely about fíriel and denethor's relationship #i wanna write more about fíriel and éowyn's #there's 'a hard matter' with fíriel and aragorn figuring out What Now #there's théoden surviving as an outcome of denethor stuff and returning in honor and glory to rohan with éomer and éowyn at his side #there's pippin's love for faramir becoming a sort of scaled-down version of gimli and galadriel with fíriel #gandalf telling young fíriel his true maia name #AND WHAT ABOUT ELROND #esp if i go with my headcanon that the stewards' 'royal origin' is tindómiel...? #there's just #so much #...fíriel's nose is a bit different in my head but otherwise the second picture is especially super close to how i picture her #anyway

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I reblogged this post, and added:

f a v e s

Tagged: #i'm not reblogging my entire tag but i was just beset by húrinionath feelings #nbd they just give off maiar vibes #(!!!)

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An anon said:

Maybe it’s just overthinking but I keep going back to that moment when Eowyn says “do you not know?” and Faramir answers “two reasons…” etc. I feel like Faramir’s answer exhibits his keen powers of judgment but that furthermore their conversation confirms Eowyn’s own strength and presence as an individual who is NOT completely transparent, even to Faramir.

Because on the one hand he can succinctly summarize Eowyn’s emotional dilemma, BUT he also says: I’m not sure which of the two reasons is actually keeping you here. And I like to think it’s rare that Faramir is presented with a psychological mystery in another person that he cannot confidently get to the bottom of, so it feels significant that his knowing co-exists with a non-knowing when it comes to Eowyn in particular.

I replied:

Oh, interesting! Yeah, I think that’s a fair observation. I don’t think it’s because she’s part-Númenórean or anything like that; it’s just, as you say, the strength of her mind and her inclination up to that moment.

If we go back to Faramir’s interchanges with Gollum (this is related, I promise!), one of the most interesting moments comes when he says that he can’t see a lot of what’s going on with him because his mind is closed and dark, but he’s getting “murder” and “deceit” vibes. And while Éowyn is (of course!!!!) a very different person than Gollum, I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar is happening at a sort of mechanical level. Her mind isn’t dark in the same sense, but it is closed off to an extent. Even though Faramir has the insight to see some of what’s hidden, it’s only some.

We might even see a similar level of uncertainty in Gandalf’s otherwise confident and spot-on take on her, too; “you might have heard even such things [from her]” or “who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone?” Éowyn is understood in these cases, but at the same time, has the will to keep her mind essentially her own.

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I reblogged a post I'd made back in 2019 about Denethor, Faramir, and Gandalf:

Gandalf about Denethor:

‘He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.’

Frodo with Faramir and Gollum:

‘Do you know the name of that high pass?’ said Faramir.

‘No,’ said Frodo.

'It is called Cirith Ungol.’ Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?’ said Faramir turning to him.

'No!’ said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him.

I love my freakish faves so much, y’all

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I’m still on this, so—

Faramir:

“Ah well, sir,” said Sam, “you said my master had an elvish air; and that was good and true. But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of—well, Gandalf, of wizards.”

Denethor:

He turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

!!!!!!!