Anghraine

Normally I just vaguely describe text posts I reblogged on a certain date, but this one really cannot be paraphrased:



[Text: Tumblr user problempippin posted on 15 Jan 2019 that "pippin is buff and the reason why boromir and other men of gondor describe him as childlike is bc in gondor all children are fucking shredded"]

I added:

#finally quality gondor content

[ETA 5/24/2024: this was mostly but not entirely tongue-in-cheek on my part! Tolkien is pretty clear that even Third Age Dúnedain are bigger and stronger than other people, including Elves, and their standards of physical strength are pretty distinct. I could believe that kids in Minas Tirith are shredded :P]

chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

sulfin-evend responded to the April 13th 2019 post here:

The idea that Elrond is against Gondor somehow is a reoccurring idea in the tumblr fandom. So I went back to reread the Council of Elrond to make sense of it, and I can barely find one phrase that could be considered anti Gondor. Am I missing something?

I replied:

I think we must be interpreting Elrond’s description of modern Gondor very differently. For me, going on about how they’ve dwindled from imperial heights through intermarriage with inferior races is high octane Yikes and certainly negative towards modern Gondor. Especially given that it’s said with a Gondorian right there.

(It’s partly Tolkien being Tolkien, but only partly IMO: we later hear that the inclusion of non-Númenóreans in Gondor has contributed to the strength of Gondor’s people and is a way in which the Stewards were wiser than the kings.)

They also said:

Love the commentary on the names. Also i love that Elured is supposed to be a Taliska and Sindarin mixed name. The half elves do honour the human side of their heritage

I replied:

Thanks! I think Tolkien ultimately decided Taliska had died out by that point (since “The Problem of Ros” didn’t work out). But yeah, the peredhil are pretty consistently respectful towards their human heritage.

They responded to this post:

Headcanon; Gondor is full of various languages and bilingual people. Everyone knows Westron, but some speak Sindarin or one of many native ancient languages, words from dead languages come up in regional dialects.

I replied:

Total agreement! We know there are at least some place-names that have elements derived from indigenous languages, so it’s possible to extrapolate from that, and of course, many of the soldiers in Minas Tirith shout at each other in Sindarin. When we hear that people burst out singing in “all the ways of the City,” I like to imagine that it’s not just musical styles but all these different languages at once.

[ETA 3/18/2024: In the interests of full disclosure, they did later respond again re: Elrond and Gondor, but I find Elrond's characterization of modern Gondor so intrinsically indefensible that I had no interest in engaging further.]

I’ve talked about it before, but it’s really weird to me when people complain about “Faramir is the one who goes to Rivendell” as a concept when Tolkien goes out of his way to emphasize that the sender of the dream favored Faramir.

Unless I’m misremembering, Faramir has the prophetic dream first, and has it repeatedly where Boromir only has it once, and everyone but Boromir agrees that Faramir should be the one to go. It was Boromir alone who insisted on taking Faramir’s place, and he managed to carry the day. No, it’s not that it was morally wrong for him to take the journey on himself; on the contrary, it was noble and heroic. But that doesn’t make it the only or best course of action when Faramir was clearly being favored…?

Tagged: #also pretty weird when people are like 'it would doom the quest' or 'it would change nothing bc faramir would do the same thing' #they're... different people...? #but also it's just really clear that faramir was meant to go #like—if i set out to write it again i would be way friendlier to boromir than i was at 18 #i'm really fond of boromir! #but i still wouldn't nail it to the railroad tracks of canon as if faramir and boromir are the same person #OR as if faramir cannot possibly be better equipped to deal with any situation ever than boromir #which is ... kind of how some posts on my dash seem to talk

Boromir is a Dúnadan 2k20

Tagged: #look. just bc he didn't inherit the superpowers doesn't mean he's just some guy #tolkien himself attributed boromir's size to him being númenórean #it's not that he isn't in any way; it's that he's not the nearly full-throttle númenórean /type/ that denethor and faramir are #but i think he sometimes gets treated as this kind of generic stand-in for normal people and ehhhhh #it's definitely not how he thinks of himself #and tbh there's a really uncomfortable component (in canon also but unnecessarily carried into fandom imo) #with the whole ... well the stewards and modern gondorians are mixed race so only kinda sorta count as members of their own culture #...thing #nah bro

jubaah replied to this post:

telperien and boromir… hundreds of emotional crying emojis… perf

I said:

Right?! And now I’m imagining young Boromir learning about this great ruler who refused to have anything to do with marriage and then turned around and authorized a fleet of warships and him just being 😍

Tagged: #boromir's teacher: and tar-telperiën took no interest in middle-earth and- #boromir (age 12): well ACTUALLY #ajklsdf;jkad i know this is one hundred percent not tolkien's intention and it is one hundred percent my headcanon now #telperiën stanning ace boromir is everything

Speaking of Faramir’s canon appearance, I feel like Boromir’s also doesn’t get quite the appreciation it merits?

• There was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed
• His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed
• "Where now is Boromir the Fair?" (Legolas)
• "His head so proud, his face so fair, his limbs they laid to rest"
• "His face was more beautiful even than in life." (Faramir)

Is he attractive??? We may never know

#i think there's this thing where ... boromir is more of an eorling type temperamentally and it gets kind of extended to his appearance #to the point that he's not treated as a /real/ dúnadan #but he is! tolkien emphasizes this in his description of boromir's height but also just... generally #he may not have the superpowers or temperament but he is still a númenórean in appearance and history BYE #gorgeous hulking númenórean boromir is very important okay #(just imagine f!boromir... anyway)

I periodically see very nice posts about how sweet it is that Elrond is so kind towards all of Elros's descendants, and they are nice and I don't respond, because every time, my mind goes straight to Elrond talking about Gondorian Dúnedain's racial impurity right in front of a Gondorian Dúnadan descended from Elros.

I remember someone on Tumblr being like, okay, that's only one sentence, but ... uh, how many sentences of it do we really need? Unless he's misrepresenting himself, that sentence is still what he thinks.

heckofabecca replied to this post:

this is. HILARIOUS.

I said:

heeeeh, thank you!

The lament for Boromir, condensed:

Aragorn: he was big and brave and his death is a terrible loss to his people and us all

Legolas: he was also super hot. rip :(

Tagged:

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