Anghraine

sulfin-evend said:

I love your take on Gondor. What do you make of Boromir's quote in the council of Elrond paraphrasing "those who shelter behind us give us much praise but little help". I presume he is talking about other Gondorians. And the Stewards are often referred to as Lords of Minas Tirth or lord of the city.

What does this mean for how Gondor and its provinces view themselves and how its armies function. Are the Princes of Dol Amroth minting their own coin? Do the lords of Morthond present their daughters at the Stewards court? Are all the lords related to each other in a tangle of blood and marriage ties or do they keep to their home fiefs? It could be envisioned so many ways I am curious to read your perspective.

I replied:

Thanks!

I’ve always taken the opposite reading of Boromir’s line—that he’s talking about the peoples of Middle-earth sheltering behind Gondor generally, and this is why (if I’m remembering correctly) the others at the council go out of their way to point out that it’s not just Gondor that’s protecting the people of Middle-earth.

That said, Tolkien described the Princes of Dol Amroth as almost independent, but not quite; they’re “tributary princes” who contribute … something … to Gondor as a state. So while it might not look exactly like taxation as we’d understand it and could refer to things other than money, I do think it suggests some degree of cohesion, if even the Princes of Dol Amroth (definitely the most powerful and independent of the regional nobles) have to contribute to the whole.

We do see that the fiefs have a lot of authority when it comes to what troops they raise and where they send them. They only sent 1/10th of the forces at their command to help defend Minas Tirith because they were so worried about their own people, and seem to have been entirely free to make that call (and the people of Minas Tirith are disappointed but not enraged). So there’s still quite a bit of regional power in the military sense, at least. But Tolkien also said that a Dúnadan king or Ruling Steward was a fairly absolute ruler in other ways (esp dealing with interpretation of law), so it may be that the lords’ authority is particularly pronounced in military matters and more limited in others.

I do imagine that there would be a lot of intermarriage between the Dúnadan noble families, given that there are only so many of them. While Gondorians have less hang-ups about ~purity than in the Kinstrife days, I think it’s still something people are conscious of, as with Éowyn’s joke that Faramir’s people will wonder why he didn’t choose a woman “of the race of Númenor” to be his wife (she doesn’t seem to think her ¼ Númenórean ancestry will count for Gondorians).

IMO it’s entirely probable that the Stewards and Princes of Dol Amroth have intermarried multiple times, say—not with first cousins (I think that taboo became pretty non-negotiable post-Akallabêth), but more distant connections. Perhaps Imrahil is recognizable as part-Elvish to Legolas despite the generational distance from Mithrellas because Imrahil’s actually descended from her many times over. Etc.

[ETA 5/24/2024: sulfin-evend did respond to this, but given that they acknowledged being "contrary" in this interaction and that they defended Elrond's profoundly racist characterization of modern Gondor, I didn't feel inclined to reply again.]

In this age of remakes and adaptations (though pretty much all ages are ages of remakes and adaptations tbh), I sometimes imagine adaptations of my childhood/adolescent faves. Off the top of my head and in no particular order:

• Jane Yolen’s Wizard’s Hall (super formative, could make a pretty cool, sometimes creepy, film)
• The Witch of Blackbird Pond (just … great, probably fits a mini-series better)
• Sweet Valley Twins (maybe this already exists? it would be terrible, but I inhaled them as a kid)
• Agatha Christie in general (definitely exists, though the quality is variable … I really disliked the version I saw of Cards on the Table)
• She-Ra (exists, is great)
• The Belgariad and the Elenium (I would prefer the latter, with Liberties taken to deal with some of the Eddingsisms, but the former might be more cinematic. I once had an AU where as a fairly minor background detail, the Elenium was made in place of GOT, but with the same cast, like Lena Headey as Sephrenia, etc …)
• LOTR, esp Gondor (of course there are the movies, but a) their treatment of Gondor is terrible on a lot of fronts, and b) I think LOTR is better suited to TV anyway, and in my dreams, really high-quality animation)
• Wheel of Time (in the works, I’m lowkey terrified)
• Daughter of the Empire (no idea how this would be done)
• Incarnations of Immortality (I don’t really want money going to Piers Anthony, so no, even though it’s conceptually one of my fave takes on Death)
• Pern (??? I would mostly watch this for Lessa. Probably super expensive to make as a series, which it would have to be)
• Valdemar (I DON’T EVEN KNOW)
• Tamora Pierce (I love Emelan best, but Tortall would be cool, too!)
• So You Want to Be a Wizard (it seems like it would be very cinematic in some ways and not at all in others, so I’m not sure, but if someone could make it work, awesome)

I managed to integrate a lot of tangents into last night's infodump on Númenórean pregnancy because it turned up so many interesting sort-of related things, but there were STILL MORE details that I couldn't work in but was delighted in various ways by. A list:

1. Tolkien struggled to make the Maeglin story work with the developmental scheme he was trying to mathematically pin down for Elves, given that Maeglin's history requires him to be born much later than most of the other Elves of his generation. Tolkien concluded that Maeglin had to be an adult, but that he would have been very young in Elvish terms, and this is part of the reason Idril was so unsettled by his interest in her. He wasn't a literal child but he was kind of a kid from Idril's POV.

2. SPEAKING of Maeglin's history, another idea Tolkien came up with to deal with the Maeglin problem was the idea that Maeglin actually isn't that much younger, but instead, Aredhel was either persuaded or trapped by Eöl before ever reaching Aman! In this case, the "Dark Elf" descriptor for Eöl would have no racial subtext whatsoever—Eöl would not be Avari or Sindarin at all, but another Noldo who refused to finish the journey to Valinor and thus never saw the light of the Two Trees. The implication of Noldorin Exiles calling him "Dark Elf" is less "Sinda" and more "loser."

3. Tolkien makes a couple of errors in trying to figure out the math. Some of those mistakes are the math, or at least numerical (Arwen's birth year gave him a lot of trouble, more on this further down), but he also does things like mixing up Elenwë and Anairë at one point. IDK, there's so much hagiography in Tolkien discourse that it's kind of endearing to see him making ordinary writerly mistakes.

( Read more... )

An anon asked:

Hi there, Elizabeth, I loved your post about the height calculations. I remember reading that Tolkien once described Éowyn as "a stern Amazon woman". Just how tall is 'Amazonian woman' height in your eyes?

I replied:

Heh, thanks! I’ve talked about it enough times that I’m not 100% sure which one you’re talking about (but they’re all pretty much the same, anyway).

If I’m not mistaken, Tolkien used “Amazon” to mean a woman who is a warrior by vocation on multiple occasions. IIRC he describes Haleth’s female bodyguard as Amazons, referring to their identity as female warriors rather than their physical size. There’s a letter where he says that Éowyn is not really an Amazon, but rather, capable of great heroism in a crisis like many brave women. So again, he uses the term in reference to inclination rather than size.

Personally, I tend to go back to LOTR and UT for Éowyn’s height: she’s described as tall on multiple occasions, but is also shorter than the Riders in general, who are typically shorter than Gondorians, and Faramir has to stoop down to kiss her forehead. I imagine that she’s about 5′9″, though some variation in either direction is possible.

This anon said:

thanks for answering my question about faramir :) i also had a similar follow up q if you didnt mind: what do you think drove eowyn's attraction to faramir? its a common criticism that it seems like a sudden about face for her character, especially in light of her prior attraction to aragorn & how she turns from warfare to peace... but again, imo a near death experience and the loss of someone close to her is as good a cause as any

I replied:

You’re welcome!

I think it’s somewhat fair to criticize the abruptness of Éowyn’s shift in terms of how it’s presented (rather than the literal time scale, which is less important in the circumstances IMO). We see Faramir and Éowyn briefly interact, then they have these conversations we don’t see, and when we see them again, they’re friends/he’s fully in love with her. I think that if we saw more of this offscreen development of their relationship, and perhaps some grounding for the peace/healing/gardening turn beyond the symbolic, there’d be less criticism of how abrupt things are (still some, but less).

Their story is tangential to the wider narrative, in fairness, and I think it’s generally quite beautiful as written, just a little rushed structurally.

Setting that aside, though, there’s something about the shift from Éowyn/Aragorn to Éowyn/Faramir that I think gets a bit overlooked—

—and it’s that Faramir is quite a bit like Aragorn.

It’s not that he’s a second-rate replacement for Aragorn, to head that off right away. But he does possess the qualities that Éowyn genuinely finds appealing in Aragorn; he’s very tall, a great warrior, a charismatic leader, stern but capable of lightness, thoughtful, intelligent, learned, bold when necessary but self-controlled, and is both human and Elvish/wizardly in his air, beliefs, and abilities (and this list is not exhaustive!).

However, part of Éowyn’s attraction to Aragorn also springs from a mix of immaturity and misery. Tolkien remarked that the disparity between Aragorn’s actual age (80s) and appearance (only middle-aged) makes his impression on her all the more powerful. For this very reason, though, Tolkien decided the pairing didn’t work—he’s too old for Éowyn, and the impression he leaves on her leads to infatuation/idolization rather than mature romantic love.

On top of that, Éowyn’s situation in Meduseld is inexpressibly nightmarish and and in Aragorn, she sees a path out of Rohan that would lift her ‘up’ above her suffering and shame. Once there’s no chance of that, she goes seeking death—not truly because of ‘love’ for Aragorn, but because she’s been so trapped and can’t see any other way out that coheres with her ideals for her house and for herself. It’s significant that she ultimately tells Faramir that she no longer desires to be a queen—that was a significant part of Aragorn’s attraction for her.

And the thing is that the qualities that made her infatuated but not really in love with Aragorn are the things that are mostly not there with Faramir. Tolkien explicitly says that, while Faramir has a ‘high’ air, it’s not as high or remote as Aragorn’s can be. Rather, it’s more immediate and constant. Faramir isn’t old or overwhelming; he’s quietly impressive in a way she respects without being swept off her feet into infatuation. He doesn’t represent a way out; he’s not going to rule Gondor for much longer and has no idea what his future will be, yet she’s drawn to his gentleness and dignity anyway. They’re friends. They talk about things, they bond in these incredibly difficult moments when she finds herself drawing close to him. It’s not a relationship she’s built up in her head; it’s all real.

Even though this is all happening quickly in calendar time, I think it’s quite gradual in the emotional sense, as Éowyn goes from respect (and, I think, attraction) to friendship to falling in love without quite understanding what’s going on, to finally understanding what’s actually going on in her head and heart, and seeing a way to live that isn’t about escape or glory, but—living. I think that her newfound value for life and her subconscious love for Faramir have been building through all their interactions, and in the end, come naturally together in this flash of realization.

Tagged: #rambling a lot but this is def how i feel about it generally #her transition is mostly framed as war -> peace #which is certainly there #but i think it's also very much from imaginary -> real

An anon asked:

forgive me if you've answered this, but why do you think faramir was able to go from the way we saw him in ttt & early rotk (including seemingly having some prejudices against the rohirrim) to him suddenly being softer (& falling in love w/ a rohir) once in the houses of healing? it always seemed a bit of a jump to me & occurred so fast (although i guess having a near death experience is as good a catalyst as any) & id love to hear your thoughts on it (if you have any & want to of course!)

I replied:

Hmm, it’s an interesting question!

I will say that while I’ve seen the “Faramir is wrong and unfair about the Rohirrim in TTT” thing going around, I think that take pretty actively rejects Tolkien’s values and themes. I don’t think Tolkien remotely intended Faramir’s arc to involve coming around to respect the valorization of war and glory in Rohan, and increasingly in Gondor. He never does and he never will. If anything, it’s the reverse; Faramir’s reservations about the prioritization of martial prowess in the modern societies around him are Tolkien’s reservations, and Éowyn’s adoption of his ethos / at least partial rejection of Rohan’s is a conversion to a more mature and right way of thinking about these things in Tolkien’s treatment of it.

I mean, it’s fine for people to be uncomfortable with that (there’s a degree to which I am myself). But I think that people sometimes ignore that Faramir is the character most like Tolkien, and part of his function is to deliver Tolkien’s views within the story and influence other characters towards the values that Tolkien held. So that’s part of what’s going on.

Jumping back in-story, though:

I think the main issue is that in TTT, Faramir is acting as a commander among his men in a very tense situation, dealing with people he believes might have betrayed his brother to his death, and who certainly know more than they’re saying in any case (brief detour to the meta level: the ambiguity over what Faramir’s really like and what he’ll do in TTT also helps maintain tension in some very talky scenes).

Meanwhile, in early ROTK, he’s still acting as a commander, but with his own leader, whom he disagrees with about both his previous actions and their current tactics. Denethor is also his father, of course, and Faramir’s conduct there is influenced by their messy and painful mixture of love and opposition, but Tolkien notes in the letters that another major factor in how Faramir relates to Denethor is that Faramir views himself as a Númenórean before the last Númenórean head of state. This is a big deal for him.

And then he falls in battle, and when he wakes up, Denethor is dead and Faramir is the Steward of Gondor. Even though he still has someone he’s going to relate to in that Númenórean-to-Númenórean-lord way (Aragorn), it’s not the complex, concentrated thing it was with Denethor, nor the high-octane intensity of his situation in TTT. There’s no Ring, no soldiers, no dubious captives, no authority to answer to. He can simply act as he sees fit. Faramir with Éowyn is, I think, Faramir at his most natural, without these incredible pressures on him. He can afford to be softer, gentle, and compassionate, vulnerable in some ways, confident in others.

It’s more headcanon, but I also think that … yes, losing his family is freeing in some ways, but it’s also horrible, obviously. And I think part of what’s going on with him is that he’s dealing with loss, first with Boromir and then Denethor, and with the latter, that loss happened with everything unresolved, and he’s got to know there are things people aren’t telling him about it. I’ve talked about it before, but I do think there’s a lot going on in his head at that point, and he’s the sort of person whose grief makes him more sympathetic to other people’s. So I think that’s part of what’s going on, too.

And then after all of that, he just falls like a ton of bricks for this incredible woman. I don’t think he’d ever have minded that Éowyn is Rohirren—IMO his TTT remark that “we love them” is foreshadowing for this—but if he did at some point, he’s well beyond giving a single fuck about it by then. As we see with the very public kiss, of course.

So that’s pretty much where I stand on it all!

chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

An anon said (wrt this):

The Eowyn/Faramir shipper in me wants to suggest that Faramir keeps his horse but shows up at the same time as Boromir because he lingers at Meduseld, fascinated by Eowyn, but I feel like Faramir is too dutiful for that lol I do love the potential this AU has for that relationship - as much as I love the Houses of Healing, it would be interesting to see how they would bond when not immediately recovering from trauma...

I replied:

Haha, I was just writing up an addition that’s like … okay, how do Faramir and Éowyn interact? They’d meet when he first passed through—does he fall as rapidly as in canon? What does Éowyn think of him? What does he pick up from Wormtongue? If he does still fall like a ton of bricks for her, that’d be a hell of a situation to leave behind. I mean, it is anyway, but there are just so many questions that arise from that.

I tend to agree that he wouldn’t linger; he’d give a warning, but he’s got divine commands to follow. Still, I think it could definitely affect how their relationship winds out. It’d be more protracted in some ways, and there’s a big question of whether she still gets infatuated with Aragorn with Faramir there. If Faramir and Éowyn do fall in love in the TTT timeline, her pain would be different but perhaps all the more present when it’s real love at work.

Alternately, it’s possible that Faramir is initially overshadowed by Aragorn, and he doesn’t end up in the Houses of Healing because he’s on the Paths of the Dead, and following that arc to get back to Gondor. Then he would be off to Mordor (maybe that’s when she realizes her true feelings), or maybe she realizes after the victory when she’s supposed to return to Rohan … there are a lot of ways it could play out.

An anon asked:

Are there any Faramir going to Rivendell AUs that you would recommend? The only other one I've seen apart from yours was movie-verse which was an instant no from me

I replied:

LOL, same.

And yeah, people sometimes talk about it as some major bookverse genre, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that doesn’t significantly incorporate movie canon. In fairness, I haven’t read much Faramir fic since my 20s, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same now.

In fact, I was just thinking yesterday about wishing I could magic one into existence (well, actually two different ones!), but … no success.

Tagged: #i probably won't ever return to 'better choice' but i hope i'll write a new one sooner or later #even if only in snippets #but yeah never found one that clicked with me