AO3 meme!

Jul. 2nd, 2024 03:54 pm
anghraine: elizabeth accepting darcy's proposal in "austen's pride" (darcy and elizabeth (austen's pride))
I am pretty sure I stole this from [personal profile] meridian_rose! I do love me a fic meme :D

Rules: go to your AO3 account and find the following:

1. What rating do you write most of your fics under?


Overwhelmingly general, at 165 out of 222 fics. This isn't that surprising—maybe a bit more than I expected, but I can be a bit skittish about romance for someone who likes it a lot.

2. What are your top three fandoms?

In a totally shocking twist: Star Wars, Pride and Prejudice - Jane Austen, and Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien. The gap between the first two (tied at 67 fics each) and LOTR (27) is pretty vast, and the "real" #3 was the fandom tag for the SW original trilogy specifically. I know I often feel uncomfortable writing Tolkien fic, much more than Austen or SW, despite writing so much meta about Middle-earth, so again, this isn't a big surprise.

3. What is the top character you write about?

I am extremely sure this one is going to be Darcy!

Yup, it was! He's tagged in 53 fics to Elizabeth's 43, with Luke and Leia following closely at 39 and 34.

4. What are the top three pairings you write about?

The first is, of course, Darcy/Elizabeth, the unbeatable victor of all such contests when it comes to me. It has twenty more fics than the runner-up, which of course is Jyn/Cassian (a big gap, though Darcy/Elizabeth has the advantage of very considerable seniority; I wrote my first D/E fic in 2005, while Jyn and Cassian didn't even exist until 2016). The third most-common romantic pairing in my fics is ... honestly, I think it's got to be Cesare/Lucrezia from The Borgias. I know, I know! And yup, it's got 11 fics, trailing behind platonic Luke and Leia fics (12), Jyn/Cassian (19), and Darcy/Elizabeth (39).

5. What are the top three additional tags?

I wondered if the "always a different sex" tag would hit the top three, but let's see ... actually, no! It's only at #4, following from three rather boring winners. My most common additional tag is "Canon Compliant" (71), "One Shot" (66), and "Drabble" (39). I'm guessing there is quite a lot of overlap between these. The only specific premises or subjects to appear in any of the top ten are the genderbending tags (these days I typically use "Always A Different Sex" but I used to use the vaguer "Gender Changes" tag) and the "Brother-Sister Relationships" tag. If there isn't overlap between the two genderbending tags, together they would actually beat out "Drabble" (the usual tag has 37 fics and the old one 14).

6. Did any of this surprise you?

LOL, not really. I am what I am.

Tagging: [personal profile] croclock, [personal profile] alias_sqbr, [personal profile] sixbeforelunch, [personal profile] elperian, [personal profile] brynnmclean, [personal profile] heckofabecca, [personal profile] incognitajones, and [personal profile] lizbee, if any of you want to do it!

anghraine: the symbol of gondor: a white tree on a black field with seven stones and a crown (gondor)
sulfin-evend said:

I love your take on Gondor. What do you make of Boromir's quote in the council of Elrond paraphrasing "those who shelter behind us give us much praise but little help". I presume he is talking about other Gondorians. And the Stewards are often referred to as Lords of Minas Tirth or lord of the city.

What does this mean for how Gondor and its provinces view themselves and how its armies function. Are the Princes of Dol Amroth minting their own coin? Do the lords of Morthond present their daughters at the Stewards court? Are all the lords related to each other in a tangle of blood and marriage ties or do they keep to their home fiefs? It could be envisioned so many ways I am curious to read your perspective.


I replied:

Thanks!

I’ve always taken the opposite reading of Boromir’s line—that he’s talking about the peoples of Middle-earth sheltering behind Gondor generally, and this is why (if I’m remembering correctly) the others at the council go out of their way to point out that it’s not just Gondor that’s protecting the people of Middle-earth.

That said, Tolkien described the Princes of Dol Amroth as almost independent, but not quite; they’re “tributary princes” who contribute … something … to Gondor as a state. So while it might not look exactly like taxation as we’d understand it and could refer to things other than money, I do think it suggests some degree of cohesion, if even the Princes of Dol Amroth (definitely the most powerful and independent of the regional nobles) have to contribute to the whole.

We do see that the fiefs have a lot of authority when it comes to what troops they raise and where they send them. They only sent 1/10th of the forces at their command to help defend Minas Tirith because they were so worried about their own people, and seem to have been entirely free to make that call (and the people of Minas Tirith are disappointed but not enraged). So there’s still quite a bit of regional power in the military sense, at least. But Tolkien also said that a Dúnadan king or Ruling Steward was a fairly absolute ruler in other ways (esp dealing with interpretation of law), so it may be that the lords’ authority is particularly pronounced in military matters and more limited in others.

I do imagine that there would be a lot of intermarriage between the Dúnadan noble families, given that there are only so many of them. While Gondorians have less hang-ups about ~purity than in the Kinstrife days, I think it’s still something people are conscious of, as with Éowyn’s joke that Faramir’s people will wonder why he didn’t choose a woman “of the race of Númenor” to be his wife (she doesn’t seem to think her ¼ Númenórean ancestry will count for Gondorians).

IMO it’s entirely probable that the Stewards and Princes of Dol Amroth have intermarried multiple times, say—not with first cousins (I think that taboo became pretty non-negotiable post-Akallabêth), but more distant connections. Perhaps Imrahil is recognizable as part-Elvish to Legolas despite the generational distance from Mithrellas because Imrahil’s actually descended from her many times over. Etc.

[ETA 5/24/2024: sulfin-evend did respond to this, but given that they acknowledged being "contrary" in this interaction and that they defended Elrond's profoundly racist characterization of modern Gondor, I didn't feel inclined to reply again.]
anghraine: a picture of grey-white towers starting to glow yellow in the rising sun (minas anor)
Normally I just vaguely describe text posts I reblogged on a certain date, but this one really cannot be paraphrased:



[Text: Tumblr user problempippin posted on 15 Jan 2019 that "pippin is buff and the reason why boromir and other men of gondor describe him as childlike is bc in gondor all children are fucking shredded"]

I added:

#finally quality gondor content

[ETA 5/24/2024: this was mostly but not entirely tongue-in-cheek on my part! Tolkien is pretty clear that even Third Age Dúnedain are bigger and stronger than other people, including Elves, and their standards of physical strength are pretty distinct. I could believe that kids in Minas Tirith are shredded :P]
anghraine: an illustration of moiraine damodred, a dark-haired woman in fancy fantasy clothes with a blue drop over her forehead (moiraine)
In this age of remakes and adaptations (though pretty much all ages are ages of remakes and adaptations tbh), I sometimes imagine adaptations of my childhood/adolescent faves. Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
  • Jane Yolen’s Wizard’s Hall (super formative, could make a pretty cool, sometimes creepy, film)
  • The Witch of Blackbird Pond (just … great, probably fits a mini-series better)
  • Sweet Valley Twins (maybe this already exists? it would be terrible, but I inhaled them as a kid)
  • Agatha Christie in general (definitely exists, though the quality is variable … I really disliked the version I saw of Cards on the Table)
  • She-Ra (exists, is great)
  • The Belgariad and the Elenium (I would prefer the latter, with Liberties taken to deal with some of the Eddingsisms, but the former might be more cinematic. I once had an AU where as a fairly minor background detail, the Elenium was made in place of GOT, but with the same cast, like Lena Headey as Sephrenia, etc …)
  • LOTR, esp Gondor (of course there are the movies, but a) their treatment of Gondor is terrible on a lot of fronts, and b) I think LOTR is better suited to TV anyway, and in my dreams, really high-quality animation)
  • Wheel of Time (in the works, I’m lowkey terrified)
  • Daughter of the Empire (no idea how this would be done)
  • Incarnations of Immortality (I don’t really want money going to Piers Anthony, so no, even though it’s conceptually one of my fave takes on Death)
  • Pern (??? I would mostly watch this for Lessa. Probably super expensive to make as a series, which it would have to be)
  • Valdemar (I DON’T EVEN KNOW)
  • Tamora Pierce (I love Emelan best, but Tortall would be cool, too!)
  • So You Want to Be a Wizard (it seems like it would be very cinematic in some ways and not at all in others, so I’m not sure, but if someone could make it work, awesome)
anghraine: a close-up of a man with black eyebrows and grey eyes (dúnadan)
My icon has grey eyes and black hair just for Tolkien :P

So. I generally dislike Tolkien fandom's "canonicity discourse" (yes, I'm doing it anyway) and the idea of imposing a specific ranking of texts. That said, it's occurred to me that one of the reasons I feel deeply out of step with Tolkien fandom is that The Silmarillion (as in, the published book, not the in-story accounts) is on a drastically different level of canonicity for me than basically everything else with JRR Tolkien's name on it.

I don't dislike The Silmarillion or anything. I quite enjoy it! But for me, it shows its age—not in ~a man of his time~ sense, but in an editorial sense. Christopher Tolkien did an enormous amount of spectacular editorial work over the course of his life and we are deeply indebted to him. But I think he did pretty clearly get better at it over time, and particularly at presenting his father's mass of notes and documents and so on in a way that makes the texts as accessible as possible. At the same time, in later texts, he clearly differentiates between actual words JRRT wrote (whether in the main body or in notes) and his (CT's) own understanding and explanations as JRRT's confidant and literary heir. I do give a lot of credence to Christopher Tolkien's understanding of his father's work, actually, and I deeply respect (and am grateful for) CT's efforts to carefully and clearly explain things like dates of composition (and how this can be determined), direct context, how a given point relates to his father's broader work, etc, throughout these texts.

(Tangent: Facebook keeps recommending defensive Jackson stans griping about how Christopher Tolkien just didn't get his father's work like Jackson did and was so horribly ungrateful to the filmmakers and such an inferior scholar blahblah for the crime of disliking the films. FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE!! I am not uncritical of Christopher Tolkien, and neither was Christopher Tolkien, but I think we owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude to him. Also, even to me, his response to the films seemed harsh at the time, but at this point, I think he was pretty much right, anyway, and correctly judged the films' impact and reflection of pop culture understanding of JRRT's work.)

So what is my issue with the published Silmarillion?

Read more... )
anghraine: a shot of galadriel from amazon's rings of power with her head wrapped and a star attached to her shoulder (galadriel [ice])
I managed to integrate a lot of tangents into last night's infodump on Númenórean pregnancy because it turned up so many interesting sort-of related things, but there were STILL MORE details that I couldn't work in but was delighted in various ways by. A list:

1. Tolkien struggled to make the Maeglin story work with the developmental scheme he was trying to mathematically pin down for Elves, given that Maeglin's history requires him to be born much later than most of the other Elves of his generation. Tolkien concluded that Maeglin had to be an adult, but that he would have been very young in Elvish terms, and this is part of the reason Idril was so unsettled by his interest in her. He wasn't a literal child but he was kind of a kid from Idril's POV.

2. SPEAKING of Maeglin's history, another idea Tolkien came up with to deal with the Maeglin problem was the idea that Maeglin actually isn't that much younger, but instead, Aredhel was either persuaded or trapped by Eöl before ever reaching Aman! In this case, the "Dark Elf" descriptor for Eöl would have no racial subtext whatsoever—Eöl would not be Avari or Sindarin at all, but another Noldo who refused to finish the journey to Valinor and thus never saw the light of the Two Trees. The implication of Noldorin Exiles calling him "Dark Elf" is less "Sinda" and more "loser."

3. Tolkien makes a couple of errors in trying to figure out the math. Some of those mistakes are the math, or at least numerical (Arwen's birth year gave him a lot of trouble, more on this further down), but he also does things like mixing up Elenwë and Anairë at one point. IDK, there's so much hagiography in Tolkien discourse that it's kind of endearing to see him making ordinary writerly mistakes.

Read more... )
anghraine: a shot of an enormous statue near a mountain from amazon's the rings of power (númenor [meneltarma])
An anon on Tumblr said:

First of all congrats on nearing the end of your PhD program!!! Woohoo!!!

Second of all, I’m muy late to the party here (been off tumblr for a bit) but WRT these tags ( https://www.tumblr.com/anghraine/749212904253947904/khazzman-tolkien-elendil-was-called-the ) what do you mean the pregnancies were strange lol how strange can they be…?


[The tags in question: #and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how distinct and peculiar númenóreans are #fandom has slept on it for decades but they are reallyyyyyy unusual #they have weird pregnancies (and few of them) and horse telepathy and can rarely even get injured much less sick #there's this part where tolkien is trying to mathematically figure out elvish aging (hilarious tbh) and pencils in 'and númenóreans' #that's not even getting into the uncanny valley of númenórean kids...]

My reply:

As for the first point: Thank you! I'm really looking forwards to being done, lol.

As for the second point: anon, I delight in your innocence.

Read more... )
anghraine: an armoured woman with a sword against a gold background (éowyn (pelennor))
An anon asked:

Hi there, Elizabeth, I loved your post about the height calculations. I remember reading that Tolkien once described Éowyn as "a stern Amazon woman". Just how tall is 'Amazonian woman' height in your eyes?

I replied:

Heh, thanks! I’ve talked about it enough times that I’m not 100% sure which one you’re talking about (but they’re all pretty much the same, anyway).

If I’m not mistaken, Tolkien used “Amazon” to mean a woman who is a warrior by vocation on multiple occasions. IIRC he describes Haleth’s female bodyguard as Amazons, referring to their identity as female warriors rather than their physical size. There’s a letter where he says that Éowyn is not really an Amazon, but rather, capable of great heroism in a crisis like many brave women. So again, he uses the term in reference to inclination rather than size.

Personally, I tend to go back to LOTR and UT for Éowyn’s height: she’s described as tall on multiple occasions, but is also shorter than the Riders in general, who are typically shorter than Gondorians, and Faramir has to stoop down to kiss her forehead. I imagine that she’s about 5′9″, though some variation in either direction is possible.
anghraine: a shot of an enormous statue near a mountain from amazon's the rings of power (númenor [meneltarma])
There are various timeline glitches in Middle-earth, but I can never decide whether my favorite is:

a) Arvedui claimed the throne of Gondor as not only the son-in-law of the previous king of Gondor, but as heir of Isildur … while his own father was still alive

or

b) The Númenórean fleet that saved the Elves is supposed to be sent by Tar-Minastir, but was actually sent under Tar-Telperiën.

Tagged: #hatred or love? hmm can't choose

[ETA 4/23/2024: I don't hate either of these facts, to be clear; I hate Arvedui and love Telperiën.]
anghraine: an armoured woman with a sword against a gold background (éowyn (pelennor))
This anon said:

thanks for answering my question about faramir :) i also had a similar follow up q if you didnt mind: what do you think drove eowyn's attraction to faramir? its a common criticism that it seems like a sudden about face for her character, especially in light of her prior attraction to aragorn & how she turns from warfare to peace... but again, imo a near death experience and the loss of someone close to her is as good a cause as any

I replied:

You’re welcome!

I think it’s somewhat fair to criticize the abruptness of Éowyn’s shift in terms of how it’s presented (rather than the literal time scale, which is less important in the circumstances IMO). We see Faramir and Éowyn briefly interact, then they have these conversations we don’t see, and when we see them again, they’re friends/he’s fully in love with her. I think that if we saw more of this offscreen development of their relationship, and perhaps some grounding for the peace/healing/gardening turn beyond the symbolic, there’d be less criticism of how abrupt things are (still some, but less).

Their story is tangential to the wider narrative, in fairness, and I think it’s generally quite beautiful as written, just a little rushed structurally.

Setting that aside, though, there’s something about the shift from Éowyn/Aragorn to Éowyn/Faramir that I think gets a bit overlooked—

—and it’s that Faramir is quite a bit like Aragorn.

It’s not that he’s a second-rate replacement for Aragorn, to head that off right away. But he does possess the qualities that Éowyn genuinely finds appealing in Aragorn; he’s very tall, a great warrior, a charismatic leader, stern but capable of lightness, thoughtful, intelligent, learned, bold when necessary but self-controlled, and is both human and Elvish/wizardly in his air, beliefs, and abilities (and this list is not exhaustive!).

However, part of Éowyn’s attraction to Aragorn also springs from a mix of immaturity and misery. Tolkien remarked that the disparity between Aragorn’s actual age (80s) and appearance (only middle-aged) makes his impression on her all the more powerful. For this very reason, though, Tolkien decided the pairing didn’t work—he’s too old for Éowyn, and the impression he leaves on her leads to infatuation/idolization rather than mature romantic love.

On top of that, Éowyn’s situation in Meduseld is inexpressibly nightmarish and and in Aragorn, she sees a path out of Rohan that would lift her ‘up’ above her suffering and shame. Once there’s no chance of that, she goes seeking death—not truly because of ‘love’ for Aragorn, but because she’s been so trapped and can’t see any other way out that coheres with her ideals for her house and for herself. It’s significant that she ultimately tells Faramir that she no longer desires to be a queen—that was a significant part of Aragorn’s attraction for her.

And the thing is that the qualities that made her infatuated but not really in love with Aragorn are the things that are mostly not there with Faramir. Tolkien explicitly says that, while Faramir has a ‘high’ air, it’s not as high or remote as Aragorn’s can be. Rather, it’s more immediate and constant. Faramir isn’t old or overwhelming; he’s quietly impressive in a way she respects without being swept off her feet into infatuation. He doesn’t represent a way out; he’s not going to rule Gondor for much longer and has no idea what his future will be, yet she’s drawn to his gentleness and dignity anyway. They’re friends. They talk about things, they bond in these incredibly difficult moments when she finds herself drawing close to him. It’s not a relationship she’s built up in her head; it’s all real.

Even though this is all happening quickly in calendar time, I think it’s quite gradual in the emotional sense, as Éowyn goes from respect (and, I think, attraction) to friendship to falling in love without quite understanding what’s going on, to finally understanding what’s actually going on in her head and heart, and seeing a way to live that isn’t about escape or glory, but—living. I think that her newfound value for life and her subconscious love for Faramir have been building through all their interactions, and in the end, come naturally together in this flash of realization.

Tagged: #rambling a lot but this is def how i feel about it generally #her transition is mostly framed as war -> peace #which is certainly there #but i think it's also very much from imaginary -> real
anghraine: a close-up of a man with black eyebrows and grey eyes (dúnadan)
vardasvapors on Tumblr made a post about the annoying Silmarillion fandom trend of tying everything to the Fëanorians, even when there is zero evidence or even zero probability of a connection. I reblogged it and added:

#god bless #this happened with my arnorian dúnadan post and i'm STILL annoyed

[ETA 4/18/2024: the post in question is about the Dúnadan of the North who enchanted/crafted the Barrow-daggers to break the spells on the Witch-king, the Northern Dúnedain's greatest enemy at the time. Some of the Fëanorian stans who saw it tried to figure out some way this could actually be attributable to them, even though this man was born well into the Third Age, is unlikely to have ever interacted with any Fëanorian, and his work is entirely consistent with everything else we hear of Númenórean knowledge and mystical capacities.]
anghraine: a man with long black hair and a ring on his hand (faramir [hair])
An anon asked:

forgive me if you've answered this, but why do you think faramir was able to go from the way we saw him in ttt & early rotk (including seemingly having some prejudices against the rohirrim) to him suddenly being softer (& falling in love w/ a rohir) once in the houses of healing? it always seemed a bit of a jump to me & occurred so fast (although i guess having a near death experience is as good a catalyst as any) & id love to hear your thoughts on it (if you have any & want to of course!)

I replied:

Hmm, it’s an interesting question!

I will say that while I’ve seen the “Faramir is wrong and unfair about the Rohirrim in TTT” thing going around, I think that take pretty actively rejects Tolkien’s values and themes. I don’t think Tolkien remotely intended Faramir’s arc to involve coming around to respect the valorization of war and glory in Rohan, and increasingly in Gondor. He never does and he never will. If anything, it’s the reverse; Faramir’s reservations about the prioritization of martial prowess in the modern societies around him are Tolkien’s reservations, and Éowyn’s adoption of his ethos / at least partial rejection of Rohan’s is a conversion to a more mature and right way of thinking about these things in Tolkien’s treatment of it.

I mean, it’s fine for people to be uncomfortable with that (there’s a degree to which I am myself). But I think that people sometimes ignore that Faramir is the character most like Tolkien, and part of his function is to deliver Tolkien’s views within the story and influence other characters towards the values that Tolkien held. So that’s part of what’s going on.

Jumping back in-story, though:

I think the main issue is that in TTT, Faramir is acting as a commander among his men in a very tense situation, dealing with people he believes might have betrayed his brother to his death, and who certainly know more than they’re saying in any case (brief detour to the meta level: the ambiguity over what Faramir’s really like and what he’ll do in TTT also helps maintain tension in some very talky scenes).

Meanwhile, in early ROTK, he’s still acting as a commander, but with his own leader, whom he disagrees with about both his previous actions and their current tactics. Denethor is also his father, of course, and Faramir’s conduct there is influenced by their messy and painful mixture of love and opposition, but Tolkien notes in the letters that another major factor in how Faramir relates to Denethor is that Faramir views himself as a Númenórean before the last Númenórean head of state. This is a big deal for him.

And then he falls in battle, and when he wakes up, Denethor is dead and Faramir is the Steward of Gondor. Even though he still has someone he’s going to relate to in that Númenórean-to-Númenórean-lord way (Aragorn), it’s not the complex, concentrated thing it was with Denethor, nor the high-octane intensity of his situation in TTT. There’s no Ring, no soldiers, no dubious captives, no authority to answer to. He can simply act as he sees fit. Faramir with Éowyn is, I think, Faramir at his most natural, without these incredible pressures on him. He can afford to be softer, gentle, and compassionate, vulnerable in some ways, confident in others.

It’s more headcanon, but I also think that … yes, losing his family is freeing in some ways, but it’s also horrible, obviously. And I think part of what’s going on with him is that he’s dealing with loss, first with Boromir and then Denethor, and with the latter, that loss happened with everything unresolved, and he’s got to know there are things people aren’t telling him about it. I’ve talked about it before, but I do think there’s a lot going on in his head at that point, and he’s the sort of person whose grief makes him more sympathetic to other people’s. So I think that’s part of what’s going on, too.

And then after all of that, he just falls like a ton of bricks for this incredible woman. I don’t think he’d ever have minded that Éowyn is Rohirren—IMO his TTT remark that “we love them” is foreshadowing for this—but if he did at some point, he’s well beyond giving a single fuck about it by then. As we see with the very public kiss, of course.

So that’s pretty much where I stand on it all!
anghraine: choppy water on a misty day (sea)
Anyway, thinking about LOTR as usual, and IMO one of the most intriguing things we hear about Gondor is that the hardy and strong people of Lebennin are a) considered citizens of Gondor, and b) descended from both Númenóreans and “the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings,” and in fact, some of them are primarily descended from the forgotten men.

Of course, that raises an obvious question: Who were the forgotten men?

And clearly there was some degree of intermarriage, but what were the conditions of it? What happened to them, anyway, that they’re so wholly forgotten—even by their own descendants, even by ones who have little other ancestry? Are they really completely forgotten in Lebennin or …?

Almost the only thing we hear about them in this passage is that the people who are mainly descended from them are short and “swarthy” (um) by contrast to the primarily Númenórean people of Belfalas and it’s like—uhhhh, clearly questionable, but I’m just really curious about the forgotten men of Lebennin and what happened to them. We know that Tar-Aldarion’s ecologically destructive colonization efforts drove off some of the indigenous people of Gondor, so—are the ancestors of the Lebenninians the people who stayed in the face of Númenórean imperialism? And if so, what happened?

It feels like there’s a really major story there and we just know very little about it.

Tagged: #tolkien has quite a few essays about various things in gondor but just drops 'forgotten men' with NO explanation #why are they forgotten. who were they. what happened. what place do their descendants occupy #what do they say about them in lebennin (if anything) #it's also ... interesting that the southern army that aragorn brings to minas tirith is strongly associated with lebennin #(legolas sings about it!) #so the forgotten men's descendants were instrumental in the salvation of gondor and middle-earth #yet there's like... nothing
anghraine: a picture of grey-white towers starting to glow yellow in the rising sun (minas anor)
[personal profile] chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:

the most part of the people of Gondor lived in the seven circles of the City, or in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings. But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas, dwelt Prince Imrahil in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes.

And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.
anghraine: a picture of grey-white towers starting to glow yellow in the rising sun (minas anor)
ngl I have yet to read any justification for Aragorn's argument that Théoden's edicts should not apply to him in Rohan that I didn't find deeply annoying.

I just saw yet another one on Tumblr, which ultimately was not very different from the rest. The argument was that given actual Anglo-Saxon customs, it is Théoden's requirement that everyone relinquish their weapons (often great heirlooms, which Andúril is) that is unreasonable, not Aragorn's distaste for doing so. In other permutations, it's Háma who is being short-sighted in not accepting Aragorn's greater authority. But essentially the idea is that Théoden's command itself is sketchy and Aragorn is the one being reasonable.

None of this addresses the actual problem, though, which Háma himself does.

Yes, Théoden's insistence that warriors relinquish their swords or other weapons is clearly framed as dubious and a marker of Gríma's malign influence over him, much like the use of the Rohirrim's language as a shibboleth. This is perfectly evident even without bringing in Anglo-Saxon history. Yes, Aragorn has good reason to be uneasy about leaving Andúril lying around with a random door warden. None of that is the problem.

Aragorn does not only argue that Théoden's decree with regard to weaponry in his hall is a bad idea. He argues that it is not his (Aragorn's) will to give up his weapon and that "it is not clear to me" that Théoden's will as king of Rohan should override his own as heir of Elendil "of Gondor."

There are a number of issues at play here:


anghraine: a man with long black hair and a ring on his hand (faramir [hair])
Still thinking about the Faramir AU, and:

I think the Moria section would wind out in basically the same way, though Gandalf’s death would hit Faramir harder than Boromir.

Faramir canonically has reservations about Lothlórien and Galadriel, so how does that go down? Especially the mental examination bit, which I think would be quite odd for him as someone who is more accustomed to being the person who sees part of what’s going on in the hearts and thoughts of others, and less often the person who is seen. (Though he would certainly have some experience of the latter w/ Denethor.)

What about, you know, the Ring? IIRC it gets stronger the closer it gets to Mount Doom, so the temptation he faced in canon would actually be considerably stronger than what he faces here, but a one-time experience where this is an ongoing, grinding thing. I’ve seen it suggested that he’d still be the weakest link, but I think he could resist it as much as any of the non-hobbits, but that’s still only so far, and his canon response in TTT suggests that he’d understand that.

What ultimately separates the Fellowship? Faramir wouldn’t be going off to take the Ring, so that whole set piece would work differently. I don’t think there’s reason to assume he’d die; him going would make very little overall difference in that case, except to possibly make things worse, and part of the point of him being meant to go is that it would make a significant difference, for the better. I think my idea in the original Faramir-goes-to-Rivendell fic I wrote as a teenager was that he perceives more clearly than the others that the Fellowship can’t hold out indefinitely, and privately tells Frodo so. Frodo then decides to go alone. These days … hmm.

Does Faramir join the hunt for Merry and Pippin, assuming that that pretty much follows canon? He’d want to get back to Gondor, but I think he’d always do what he considers the ethical thing, so it’s not hard to imagine him joining them. He’s also a Ranger and very tall; I don’t think he’d hold them back speed-wise. So that would go pretty similarly.

And then, Rohan!
anghraine: artist's rendition of faramir; text: i would not take this thing if it lay by the highway (faramir)
I talked a few days ago, under f-lock, about some painful RL experiences around being perceived as deeply boring and incapable of feeling pain (or feeling most emotions, really). And I wanted to make an addendum to that, one that I don’t think really needs the f-lock.

I’ve made many complaints about various fandoms + multifandom spaces and trends over the years, and I still consider most of those complaints valid. Nevertheless, fandom has typically been a much less bleak environment for me.

If someone in fandom finds me boring, they usually do not tell me so, or treat me in a way that makes this apparent. They simply don’t interact with me. And people who do follow me or interact with me don’t do it because of my family’s involvement, or because I’m a package deal with more interesting/attractive/charismatic friends, or because of some other figure in my meatspace life at all. In fandom, none of that matters. At least, it hasn't for me.

Even the followers who don’t particularly care about me as a person are following me for my own sake in some capacity, rather than for the sake of someone else. Sure, some of these will leave if I get super into something they find dull, or stop posting or whatnot, but their interest in my opinions about the thing they’re into is still about my opinions of that thing, or how I express my opinions, or something about my online persona.

And there are also people who don’t share my preoccupation with a current fixation, or don’t find my take on it interesting, and are thus kind of bored, but they like me personally enough to stick around, anyway. This doesn’t usually trigger my “oh no I’m being boring” issues, because if they’re invested enough to stay, despite disinterest in my current thing, they’re evidently still engaged at some level with me.

Beyond that, people in fandom don’t typically lecture me on my general demeanor. It’s happened, but not often. In fact, while fellow fans sometimes express respect for my—let’s say, often rather severe manner of presenting myself and my opinions, they don’t generally act like it is required of me to be that way or that it somehow precludes a capacity to feel. We’re all in fandom because we feel things!

And that’s been very powerful for me. I wasn’t diagnosed as autistic until I was well into my 20s, while I’ve been directly or indirectly excluded or distanced from many RL social circles ever since I was a child. I’ve certainly been treated as if I and the things I care about are objectively dull and emotionally unengaging.

But throughout my entire adult life, there has always been one glaring exception to this. There really was a social sphere in which my experience of others and of myself could be different. There was fandom.

For all of online fandom’s many, many flaws, this has been part of my experience of it from even before I was an adult—in fact, from the time that I made my first post. At the time, I was extremely shy and anxious, so I lurked a lot, and was very worried about breaking some rule somewhere if I actually said anything on the big scary Internet. But I had feelings. I was in high school and I had such feelings.

Many of these were Pride and Prejudice feelings. In high school, I started collecting copies of P&P just so I could read the introductions/editorial content and see what other people thought about it, since nobody I knew IRL cared about it the way I did. This was both my first step into academia proper and a sort of proto-fannish activity. But my Austen feelings were not actually the ones that propelled me into breaking my self-imposed Internet silence and detachment from online communities. A lot of Austen fandom didn’t really seem like my people. I was also into Harry Potter, but HP fandom similarly did not seem like my people.

Actually, speaking of boring other people, I’m going to be really self-indulgent and rewind even further for THE FULL SAGA of what brought me into fandom.

Read more... )
anghraine: a painting of a woman with high cheekbones and long blonde hair under a silver circlet (éowyn)
An anon said (wrt this):

The Eowyn/Faramir shipper in me wants to suggest that Faramir keeps his horse but shows up at the same time as Boromir because he lingers at Meduseld, fascinated by Eowyn, but I feel like Faramir is too dutiful for that lol I do love the potential this AU has for that relationship - as much as I love the Houses of Healing, it would be interesting to see how they would bond when not immediately recovering from trauma...

I replied:

Haha, I was just writing up an addition that’s like … okay, how do Faramir and Éowyn interact? They’d meet when he first passed through—does he fall as rapidly as in canon? What does Éowyn think of him? What does he pick up from Wormtongue? If he does still fall like a ton of bricks for her, that’d be a hell of a situation to leave behind. I mean, it is anyway, but there are just so many questions that arise from that.

I tend to agree that he wouldn’t linger; he’d give a warning, but he’s got divine commands to follow. Still, I think it could definitely affect how their relationship winds out. It’d be more protracted in some ways, and there’s a big question of whether she still gets infatuated with Aragorn with Faramir there. If Faramir and Éowyn do fall in love in the TTT timeline, her pain would be different but perhaps all the more present when it’s real love at work.

Alternately, it’s possible that Faramir is initially overshadowed by Aragorn, and he doesn’t end up in the Houses of Healing because he’s on the Paths of the Dead, and following that arc to get back to Gondor. Then he would be off to Mordor (maybe that’s when she realizes her true feelings), or maybe she realizes after the victory when she’s supposed to return to Rohan … there are a lot of ways it could play out.
anghraine: artist's rendition of faramir; text: i would not take this thing if it lay by the highway (faramir)
While I’m at it, some thoughts on Faramir at Rivendell:

- All my thoughts are underpinned by my firm belief that Faramir was, rightly, the preferred choice of whoever sent the dreams (Irmo?) and things would have worked out better if he had gone. So I’m not here for things like “Faramir would have died on the journey because Boromir is tougher and ultimately all fallen into ruin”

- In fact, I think it’s possible that Faramir would have made the journey more easily, because although Boromir is tougher than he is, it’s entirely believable that Faramir (who is repeatedly described as a master of beasts and, in canon, can keep his horse under control in the face of five Ringwraiths) is the better horseman and wouldn’t have lost his horse on the way—

- allowing for the possibility that Faramir is already at Rivendell when the others arrive (it’s also possible, for convenience, that these things basically cancel out and he gets there at the same time as Boromir, but I think it’s more interesting if we look for differences).

- If the former, there’s time for significant interactions with Elrond, Bilbo, random Elves … how does that go? Especially since Faramir canonically thinks it’s dangerous to have too much to do with Elves these days.

- Pippin registers Faramir as vaguely Elvish in canon, and also in canon, Legolas later recognizes and respects that Faramir’s uncle is partially Elvish. Does that hold for Faramir or is he more associated with Númenor/Aragorn/Gandalf(!) like Denethor?

- Specifically, how does the “the blood of Númenor is spent in Gondor and the country is in decay” stuff work with a Gondorian Dúnadan right there in whom the blood of Númenor is clearly not spent and who believes that the integration of non-Númenóreans strengthened his people, but also believes that the Dúnedain are permanently fading? Does it come up?

- Gandalf is eager to consult with Faramir in ROTK and stressed about him not being in Minas Tirith yet. How does he react to reaching Rivendell and finding Faramir, of all people, just … there? And brought by a prophetic dream? How does Faramir react to Mithrandir showing up?

- Really curious how the psychic powers possessed by quite a few characters here, including Faramir, play out generally.

- Pippin’s first impression of Faramir is affected by a) Faramir having just risen above a harrowing experience and b) reminding him of Aragorn in his (A’s) ‘high’ moments; at this point, unless I’m misremembering, Pippin would have little/no experience of either, so I’m also curious about how much of his canon first impression would be present in the AU.

- Similarly, I’m curious if Sam would associate Faramir with wizards without the trial of the Ring. What does he think of Faramir’s ‘quality’? And vice-versa?

- Really curious about how Faramir and Aragorn interact without Faramir being unconscious and dying and the whole mystical kingly … everything going on, especially given Faramir’s canonical skepticism in TTT. I tend to assume that Imrahil gave Aragorn some background on Faramir’s situation in ROTK, but with no Imrahil present and no or very few preconceptions, what do they think of each other?

That’s not even getting into, uh, most of the plot, just Faramir literally being in Rivendell. But, obviously, there are plenty of things to think about through the rest of LOTR, too!

Tagged: #faramir #elrond #bilbo baggins #(i mean. faramir and bilbo interacting is just... amazing) #(though i think i'm most interested in faramir+elrond and faramir+aragorn) #i think one of the things that makes the au so interesting #is that lotr is so tightly plotted that any change creates major effects #but it's also really clear that there's some happier alternate scenario with faramir that was supposed to happen #but it takes some doing to figure out how to make it end up there without adding in a bunch of changes that don't follow from it #...none of which this post was about but anyway
anghraine: a man with long black hair and a ring on his hand (faramir [hair])
An anon asked:

Are there any Faramir going to Rivendell AUs that you would recommend? The only other one I've seen apart from yours was movie-verse which was an instant no from me

I replied:

LOL, same.

And yeah, people sometimes talk about it as some major bookverse genre, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that doesn’t significantly incorporate movie canon. In fairness, I haven’t read much Faramir fic since my 20s, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same now.

In fact, I was just thinking yesterday about wishing I could magic one into existence (well, actually two different ones!), but … no success.

Tagged: #i probably won't ever return to 'better choice' but i hope i'll write a new one sooner or later #even if only in snippets #but yeah never found one that clicked with me

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anghraine: vader extending his lightsaber; text: and now for the airing of grievances! (Default)
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