anghraine | Entries tagged with ch: morwen of lossarnach

ngl I have yet to read any justification for Aragorn's argument that Théoden's edicts should not apply to him in Rohan that I didn't find deeply annoying.

I just saw yet another one on Tumblr, which ultimately was not very different from the rest. The argument was that given actual Anglo-Saxon customs, it is Théoden's requirement that everyone relinquish their weapons (often great heirlooms, which Andúril is) that is unreasonable, not Aragorn's distaste for doing so. In other permutations, it's Háma who is being short-sighted in not accepting Aragorn's greater authority. But essentially the idea is that Théoden's command itself is sketchy and Aragorn is the one being reasonable.

None of this addresses the actual problem, though, which Háma himself does.

Yes, Théoden's insistence that warriors relinquish their swords or other weapons is clearly framed as dubious and a marker of Gríma's malign influence over him, much like the use of the Rohirrim's language as a shibboleth. This is perfectly evident even without bringing in Anglo-Saxon history. Yes, Aragorn has good reason to be uneasy about leaving Andúril lying around with a random door warden. None of that is the problem.

Aragorn does not only argue that Théoden's decree with regard to weaponry in his hall is a bad idea. He argues that it is not his (Aragorn's) will to give up his weapon and that "it is not clear to me" that Théoden's will as king of Rohan should override his own as heir of Elendil "of Gondor."

There are a number of issues at play here:

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Current Music: '39 (Queen)

According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), all grey-eyed people actually have little splotches of different color in their eyes, even if you can’t really tell. I do, for instance!

Naturally, this makes me think of Tolkien and the 90% of his cast with grey eyes … do they have the splotches?

Is it special because they have improbably clear grey eyes or do they look more like most grey-eyed people IRL?

Is it more silver-grey or iron-grey?

Is there some range (blue-grey, green-grey, light grey, dark grey?), and that’s why it’s so noticeable when someone has the Super Special-type grey eyes?

I just have a lot of questions!!

Tagged: #this is a very deep post #but honestly i thought grey eyes were THE most boring thing to have until tolkien #and then having dark hair and grey eyes promptly became :D :D :D #i tragically don't have black/near-black hair like my parents but still #i wonder about éowyn's sea-grey eyes for instance #do we take that as blue-grey? stormy grey??? is it classic númenórean grey from morwen or typically rohirren grey?? #i choose to believe that some of the vast number of them have grey eyes like me of course

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Tolkien frequently shifted around his ideas about how language was used in Gondor and Rohan, but I wanted to settle my headcanon in my own mind. So, headcanons for the royal house of Rohan + language!

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One of the interesting things about Théoden’s restriction on entry of any non-Gondorian who doesn’t speak the language of the Mark (assuming I recall it correctly) is that he is probably not a native speaker, himself.

Before Théoden was born, his father Thengel noped out of Rohan, went to serve the Steward in Gondor, married a high-born Gondorian lady, and had three children there, including Théoden. Thengel only reluctantly returned to Rohan when the Rohirrim summoned him to take up the crown. (We don’t know what Morwen, Théoden’s mother, thought about it, but she was the one who had to leave her homeland for a place where her husband didn’t want to go even to be king.) Théoden would have spent his early years with Westron and Sindarin around him, not Markish (or whatever they call it).

It’s possible that Thengel saw to it that his elder daughters and Théoden were taught the language of the place they would one day return to, but not at all certain. We know that Thengel insisted on “the speech of Gondor” being used in his house as King of Rohan, which seems a frankly extraordinary thing to do (linguistic use is very politically loaded! especially in Middle-earth!). If he insisted on the use of Westron or Sindarin in Meduseld, it doesn’t really seem likely to me that he’d have used Markish in Gondor.

Théoden was still a small child when the family went to Rohan (he had two more sisters born in Rohan, including his beloved Théodwyn, Éomer and Éowyn’s mother). He would have learned Markish once there, certainly, and it was presumably the younger girls’ native language. It’s not that he doesn’t speak it himself! But it is interesting that the language that he himself would have had to learn becomes the marker of who authentically belongs in the Mark.

Of course, this policy is partly (perhaps mostly) due to Gríma’s influence. But nevertheless, Théoden is so much King of Rohan, in many ways an embodiment of the Rohirrim in the wider narrative, and his court seems deeply rooted in the culture of Rohan in marked contrast to Thengel’s.

And yet Théoden was born in Gondor to a Gondorian Dúnadan and a prince who assimilates into Gondorian culture to such a degree that he doesn’t want to be king of his own people. I just … wonder about what Théoden even thought of the whole situation, and what led to the choices he made about how he would rule Rohan, and how it impacted his relationship with, say, Rohan-born Théodwyn and the upbringing of her children as well as his own.

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Éowyn is very much a woman of the Rohirrim and firmly identifies herself as one, which is important and sometimes overlooked in odd ways.

But the whole idea that she’d be !!!!! at seeing anyone with Númenórean or Elvish blood is so weird to me. Like … presumably she’s seen her reflection?

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Current Location: Washington
Current Music: A Single Drop of Magic (Borislav Slavov / DOS: 2)

I reblogged this 2018 post—

I love a lot about Gondor, but one of those things?

King Turambar
Steward Húrin I
Steward Túrin I
Lady Rían, daughter of the Steward Barahir
Steward Húrin II
Steward Orodreth, son of the Steward Belecthor I
Lady Morwen, daughter of Belecthor I
Steward Túrin II
Morwen of Lossarnach, descendant of a Prince of Dol Amroth
Ivriniel of Dol Amroth
Finduilas of Dol Amroth

—and added:

Gondor is Narn stanning central tbh

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While I’m at it, Lothíriel headcanons:

Physically, she bears a strong resemblance to her father and her aunt Finduilas, but differs quite a lot in personality—in particular, she’s much more straightforward and assertive, within the bounds of what she considers proper conduct
She’s bi and aro
She’s proudly Dúnadan and resists assimilation into Eorling norms, instead maintaining Gondorian customs and habits in her personal conduct/court, which doesn’t always go over well
Like several others in her family, she has a vaguely preternatural command over horses that makes her a fearless rider, which does go over well

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Current Music: Just The Way You Are (Billy Joel)

moggett at Tumblr said:

Does Eomer have Morwen’s height? Didn’t the appendix say he took after his Rohan side (as opposed to Eowyn’s “grace and height”).

I replied:

In a later note in UT, Tolkien says:

The Rohirrim were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel’s wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.

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So:

Rohirrim are typically shorter than Gondorians
Éowyn, though tall, is shorter than the other Rohirrim as Dernhelm
Faramir is taller than the other Gondorian Dúnedain with him
Faramir is said to closely resemble his “very tall” father and at least 6′4″ brother
Faramir has to stoop down to kiss Éowyn’s brow

Conclusion: height difference!

Tags: #it is such a good trope and goes so tragically underappreciated with them #also i think it's kind of hilarious that éomer has númenórean height from morwen and is around aragorn's height of six six #éowyn's probably five ten and has been The Small One all her life

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(And that's June!)

Random headcanon:

Morwen passed down traditional Gondorian stories to her children and grandchildren, so Éowyn already knows parts of the Silmarillion before she sets foot in Gondor.

It’s only parts, of course. For one, she’s had considerably more pressing matters to think about than tales she heard as a child, and she has the stories of her own people to remember, anyway. The ride of Eorl the Young is vastly more significant to her than anything to do with the Silmarillion.

And for another, she was … well, a child, so the version she got was strictly editorialized by Morwen/Théodwyn/Théoden to appeal to a little girl of the Eorlingas (e.g., strongly skewed towards Edain and pared-down).

Even so, she heard enough from the Silmarillion to often be “oh, I remember that” when people expect the tales to be completely new to her and to contextualize the fuller versions she hears in Gondor. Either way, it’s nice to hear both the tales she never knew and the ones she remembers—as stories, and as points of connection to Morwen.

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Aragorn was not the first Númenórean Éowyn ever saw. That honour belonged to Morwen of Lossarnach, a near kinswoman of the Prince of Dol Amroth.

She did not remember the seeing, of course; the face of her mother’s mother had become a familiar one before her earliest memories ever formed. But she remembered the Morwen of later days well enough: proud, graceful, and tall, taller than the king, with strong fingers and bright piercing eyes—queenly as well as queen. Éowyn used to tug at her hair, fascinated by the intermixture of black and silver, which lasted until nearly the end. She liked to listen to her, too: the queen spoke at least three tongues, and in each of them, the firm assurance of her tone joined with a soft Gondorian lilt.

Not quite so clearly, Éowyn remembered Morwen as more cautious than her husband, less inclined to swift judgment, and less inclined to change it afterwards; the Eorlingas had called her Steelsheen for her strange beauty and grace, but it suited her down to the bone.

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