anghraine | Entries tagged with elves

I managed to integrate a lot of tangents into last night's infodump on Númenórean pregnancy because it turned up so many interesting sort-of related things, but there were STILL MORE details that I couldn't work in but was delighted in various ways by. A list:

1. Tolkien struggled to make the Maeglin story work with the developmental scheme he was trying to mathematically pin down for Elves, given that Maeglin's history requires him to be born much later than most of the other Elves of his generation. Tolkien concluded that Maeglin had to be an adult, but that he would have been very young in Elvish terms, and this is part of the reason Idril was so unsettled by his interest in her. He wasn't a literal child but he was kind of a kid from Idril's POV.

2. SPEAKING of Maeglin's history, another idea Tolkien came up with to deal with the Maeglin problem was the idea that Maeglin actually isn't that much younger, but instead, Aredhel was either persuaded or trapped by Eöl before ever reaching Aman! In this case, the "Dark Elf" descriptor for Eöl would have no racial subtext whatsoever—Eöl would not be Avari or Sindarin at all, but another Noldo who refused to finish the journey to Valinor and thus never saw the light of the Two Trees. The implication of Noldorin Exiles calling him "Dark Elf" is less "Sinda" and more "loser."

3. Tolkien makes a couple of errors in trying to figure out the math. Some of those mistakes are the math, or at least numerical (Arwen's birth year gave him a lot of trouble, more on this further down), but he also does things like mixing up Elenwë and Anairë at one point. IDK, there's so much hagiography in Tolkien discourse that it's kind of endearing to see him making ordinary writerly mistakes.

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An anon on Tumblr said:

First of all congrats on nearing the end of your PhD program!!! Woohoo!!!

Second of all, I’m muy late to the party here (been off tumblr for a bit) but WRT these tags ( https://www.tumblr.com/anghraine/749212904253947904/khazzman-tolkien-elendil-was-called-the ) what do you mean the pregnancies were strange lol how strange can they be…?

[The tags in question: #and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how distinct and peculiar númenóreans are #fandom has slept on it for decades but they are reallyyyyyy unusual #they have weird pregnancies (and few of them) and horse telepathy and can rarely even get injured much less sick #there's this part where tolkien is trying to mathematically figure out elvish aging (hilarious tbh) and pencils in 'and númenóreans' #that's not even getting into the uncanny valley of númenórean kids...]

My reply:

As for the first point: Thank you! I'm really looking forwards to being done, lol.

As for the second point: anon, I delight in your innocence.

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kareenvorbarra responded to this post:

I’d die on this hill but I can’t, morgoth won’t let me, he just makes me sit up here and watch people ignore the edain

jubaah said:

always and forever

kaz said:

beren, húrin, huor, haleth, túrin, nienor, tuor, and like eight dozen others would like a word

I replied (particularly to kareenvorbarra, but also in general):

dfjk; right? unless it somehow serves the purposes of Elf Discourse, it’s like they’re wallpaper. D:

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Under a cut for being a petulant joykill:

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I’ve always thought it interesting that “The Mariner’s Wife” places such an emphasis on Erendis looking strange (in a beautiful way, but strange) to other people on Númenor. Aldarion thinks she’s an Elf (from Tol Eressëa, I think?) until he gets close up, and we hear later that other Númenóreans are struck by her appearance, because it is “of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [Erendis’s father] came of the House of Bëor.”

So it’s pretty much wholly attributed to her being Bëorian. It turns out that her whole region was predominantly settled by Bëorians, so it seems to be a regional thing.

The physical difference between Hadorians and Bëorians is usually presented in terms of hair color, but … it’s hard for me to see the other Númenóreans as so agog at someone simply having dark hair. To me it sounds like there’s something more, idk, substantial in the difference of appearance—something which, to go by Aldarion’s initial reaction to her, is at least somewhat reminiscent of the Elves who visit Númenor (presumably Eldar). Of course, Bëorians looking somewhat (or in some cases, very much) like Eldar is not new, but it adds to the association there.

This is doubly interesting because the Faithful primarily came from the same region and thus, it’s very possible that the Númenórean ‘look’ among their descendants would be more like Erendis than what was typical of most Númenóreans.

I’m not sure what Erendis does look like tbh, but I do think her look—and by extension, Bëorians’ and most of the Faithful’s—would be pretty distinctively different.

Tagged: #i imagine that the transition to númenóreans /generally/ looking like elves is still ongoing at this point #but once it really takes hold most númenóreans look like vanyar and faithful like noldor #which is honestly kind of hilarious to me given the uhhhh cultural dynamics there #but what that difference /looks/ like beyond coloring is still up for grabs

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There’s a line in LOTR about how the people in Minas Tirith stare at Legolas because they’ve never seen anyone so beautiful, and—

Well, it presumably predates Tolkien’s later idea that Númenóreans are barely distinguishable from Elves in appearance; modern Gondorians might look different these days, but at least some of them are said to look like ancient Númenóreans.

And, after all, some of the Edain also were virtually indistinguishable from Elves. Tolkien’s later work tends to treat the human-Elvish difference of appearance as more of a spectrum than a hard line. It seems a little continuity break, if a very minor one.

… But “Elvish” there is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Elves don’t all look alike! And the Edain who look like Elves specifically look like Eldar, so perhaps when Tolkien says Númenóreans looked like Elves, he means Eldarin Elves in particular.

Headcanon conclusion: Legolas looks Silvan, and Gondorians just think Silvan Elves are super hot.

Tagged: #i'm really entertained by the idea that gondorians think noldor et al look 'like us but More' but silvan elves are where it's really at #deep blogging #truly the deepest #also i appreciate that this is apparently reciprocal to some extent? at least legolas thought boromir was notably pretty

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According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), all grey-eyed people actually have little splotches of different color in their eyes, even if you can’t really tell. I do, for instance!

Naturally, this makes me think of Tolkien and the 90% of his cast with grey eyes … do they have the splotches?

Is it special because they have improbably clear grey eyes or do they look more like most grey-eyed people IRL?

Is it more silver-grey or iron-grey?

Is there some range (blue-grey, green-grey, light grey, dark grey?), and that’s why it’s so noticeable when someone has the Super Special-type grey eyes?

I just have a lot of questions!!

Tagged: #this is a very deep post #but honestly i thought grey eyes were THE most boring thing to have until tolkien #and then having dark hair and grey eyes promptly became :D :D :D #i tragically don't have black/near-black hair like my parents but still #i wonder about éowyn's sea-grey eyes for instance #do we take that as blue-grey? stormy grey??? is it classic númenórean grey from morwen or typically rohirren grey?? #i choose to believe that some of the vast number of them have grey eyes like me of course

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vardasvapors on Tumblr asked:

WAIT I FIGURED ONE OUT. One of your Tindomiel posts inspired me: do you have ideas about Elros's wife? (Imo one of the most wtf occurrences of unnamed women.) As a person, founding queen, wife, mother, sister-in-law, or whatever, any of the facets.

I replied:

I agree! It is definitely one of the most ????? omissions, and when it comes to Númenórean women, that’s saying a lot.

Rambling a bit:

I generally prefer to wiggle around canon rather than rejecting the unpleasant aspects of it, so I start with the fact that her absence is baffling. What might have kept her out of the historical record? Even a partial, male-dominated historical record?

Well, one possibility is that she had a normal lifespan, which in the historical view would make her… kind of a blip in Elros’ half a millennium of life. If so, Elros almost certainly married her well after establishing Númenor (SA 32), since their firstborn child was born twenty-nine years later (SA 61). In fact, it’s very possible that she herself was born on Númenor (though in that case, she could have a longer lifespan).

I also tend to assume she wasn’t that politically prominent (more Laura than Hillary, say—not that a US First Lady is like a Queen of Númenor, but you get the idea). I don’t just mean in terms of her own conduct, but her family. We do occasionally hear something when the queen’s family is notable: Almarian’s father was captain of the ships, Erendis’ was a descendant of the lords of the house of Bëor, Inzilbêth was the Lord of Andúnië’s niece. So I’m thinking that her own background was not particularly exceptional.

Another detail I find interesting is her four children’s names. One is clearly named after Elros’ family (Tindómiel, the ‘morning star,’ obviously refers to Eärendil). One seems a vaguer reference to the Edain. But the other two, including the firstborn son, are named for the Valar. Considering that one or both of the other children are connected to Elros, I kind of like the idea that she was the one behind Vardamir and Manwendil. So I’m envisioning her as an intense devotee of the Valar, particularly Elbereth (it is the firstborn named for Elbereth, the third for Manwë).

Also for consideration: her eldest, Vardamir, was a dedicated scholar with zero interest in politics. He took the name Nolimon, something like ‘loremaster.’ That doesn’t necessarily reflect on his mother, but it’s something to consider, particularly given her apparent obscurity.

So: I tend to envision her as a bookish type like her son, and also like him, largely disinterested in public life. Originally, she could be a wise-woman à la Adanel—odds are that she’s also Hadorian. She’s a dedicated scholar and profoundly devout in her veneration of the Valar, particularly Elbereth.

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I just ran over another post about how Númenóreans don’t really have special abilities, but this one specifically relied on the quote about how they became virtually indistinguishable from Elves “even in powers of mind.”

Uhhh, that’s one way to prove your point, I guess.

Tagged: #people have some REALLY odd ideas about dúnedain #there's the usual equation with the dúnedain of the /north/ and dismissal of gondor of course but also #like ... i just read this trainwreck of a thread about how any infusion of elvish blood = dúnedain and anyone without it = not dúnedain #ergo some random númenórean in dol amroth = not a dúnadan while eärendil would be and i'm just... what #that's a tangent but it also came up in my search!

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[Note: cross-posting this out of sequence because I seem to have missed it earlier and a later post references it]

I love the Tindómiel/Undómiel thing not only because Elrond names his only daughter to match Elros’s only daughter (though I do).

And I love it not only because the two names act as counterparts in terms of their relationships to their people: the morning star of Númenor, the evenstar of the Elves (though I do).

I also really, really love it because the morning star and the evening star are the same star: Eärendil.

Tagged: #they named their daughters for their dad :') #and i think it's legit interesting to see priorities there? #in naming i mean #like #2/3 of elrond's kids are named in the sinda family pattern #from elwing #while elros just went all out and named two of his for the valar #his firstborn is named for elbereth!! which seems a very elvish (and esp sindarin) sort of thing #they both have a reference to men in some of the names #but elrond does it with his firstborn kids while elros doesn't until the ... fourth iirc? #again: not what you'd assume! #but the daughters get the Peak Symbolism and that's as eärendil's heiresses #:)))))))))))

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I was searching f_fa for stuff on Númenor and instead found a nonny earnestly arguing that the Númenórean men in Rings of Power being hotter than Elvish men apart from Arondir is a serious problem of sexism.

Like, it's one thing to be a purist nitpicker (I am a purist nitpicker about many things!) and to be bothered by breaking the lore. I mean, IMO, it's actually a very minor breaking of lore as far as Tolkien's writings (rather than Silm fandom vibes) go. Tolkien fandom tends to downplay the weirdness of Númenóreans as Tolkien wrote them, where they're essentially a bridge between Elves and other Men—he wrote that they were barely distinguishable from Elves in appearance and in powers of mind. If you actually care about ROP being ~true to Tolkien's vision~ or whatever, you'd want Númenórean and Elvish characters to look more like each other than like anyone else (and, personally, I think visually associating Númenóreans and Elves could lay some important groundwork for the ultimate Númenórean resentment of being "denied" Elvish immortality—their very similarities are what feeds Númenórean bitterness over their mortality!). But I've yet to see anyone complaining about ROP who thinks the problem with (debatably) more attractive Númenórean men is that Elves should look like them. Instead it's about how Elves should be drastically and distinctly more beautiful than any and all Men (Túrin Turambar whomst, I guess).

How one group of male characters being cast with more conventionally attractive actors than a different group of male characters = sexism is beyond me. Elf stanning is serious business, I guess.

(Note: I do think there actually is sexism and racism in ROP's casting, in that the female actors, and actors of color, are largely stunning while the white male roles go to just about anyone. That's markedly superior to the endlessly glorified PJ films' casting, but the pattern is still worth discussing! The comparative hotness of Númenórean and Elvish men has fuck-all to do with it, though.)

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