Anghraine

I managed to integrate a lot of tangents into last night's infodump on Númenórean pregnancy because it turned up so many interesting sort-of related things, but there were STILL MORE details that I couldn't work in but was delighted in various ways by. A list:

1. Tolkien struggled to make the Maeglin story work with the developmental scheme he was trying to mathematically pin down for Elves, given that Maeglin's history requires him to be born much later than most of the other Elves of his generation. Tolkien concluded that Maeglin had to be an adult, but that he would have been very young in Elvish terms, and this is part of the reason Idril was so unsettled by his interest in her. He wasn't a literal child but he was kind of a kid from Idril's POV.

2. SPEAKING of Maeglin's history, another idea Tolkien came up with to deal with the Maeglin problem was the idea that Maeglin actually isn't that much younger, but instead, Aredhel was either persuaded or trapped by Eöl before ever reaching Aman! In this case, the "Dark Elf" descriptor for Eöl would have no racial subtext whatsoever—Eöl would not be Avari or Sindarin at all, but another Noldo who refused to finish the journey to Valinor and thus never saw the light of the Two Trees. The implication of Noldorin Exiles calling him "Dark Elf" is less "Sinda" and more "loser."

3. Tolkien makes a couple of errors in trying to figure out the math. Some of those mistakes are the math, or at least numerical (Arwen's birth year gave him a lot of trouble, more on this further down), but he also does things like mixing up Elenwë and Anairë at one point. IDK, there's so much hagiography in Tolkien discourse that it's kind of endearing to see him making ordinary writerly mistakes.

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chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

sulfin-evend responded to the April 13th 2019 post here:

The idea that Elrond is against Gondor somehow is a reoccurring idea in the tumblr fandom. So I went back to reread the Council of Elrond to make sense of it, and I can barely find one phrase that could be considered anti Gondor. Am I missing something?

I replied:

I think we must be interpreting Elrond’s description of modern Gondor very differently. For me, going on about how they’ve dwindled from imperial heights through intermarriage with inferior races is high octane Yikes and certainly negative towards modern Gondor. Especially given that it’s said with a Gondorian right there.

(It’s partly Tolkien being Tolkien, but only partly IMO: we later hear that the inclusion of non-Númenóreans in Gondor has contributed to the strength of Gondor’s people and is a way in which the Stewards were wiser than the kings.)

They also said:

Love the commentary on the names. Also i love that Elured is supposed to be a Taliska and Sindarin mixed name. The half elves do honour the human side of their heritage

I replied:

Thanks! I think Tolkien ultimately decided Taliska had died out by that point (since “The Problem of Ros” didn’t work out). But yeah, the peredhil are pretty consistently respectful towards their human heritage.

They responded to this post:

Headcanon; Gondor is full of various languages and bilingual people. Everyone knows Westron, but some speak Sindarin or one of many native ancient languages, words from dead languages come up in regional dialects.

I replied:

Total agreement! We know there are at least some place-names that have elements derived from indigenous languages, so it’s possible to extrapolate from that, and of course, many of the soldiers in Minas Tirith shout at each other in Sindarin. When we hear that people burst out singing in “all the ways of the City,” I like to imagine that it’s not just musical styles but all these different languages at once.

[ETA 3/18/2024: In the interests of full disclosure, they did later respond again re: Elrond and Gondor, but I find Elrond's characterization of modern Gondor so intrinsically indefensible that I had no interest in engaging further.]

Unsurprisingly … there’s an AU that lives rent-free in my head where Faramir remains Ruling Steward in Gondor, and Aragorn wholly dedicates himself to rebuilding Arnor (assisted by Gondor after the war).

Sometimes it’s in a Denethor lives scenario; it’s not like Denethor was ever going to concede the Ruling Stewardship, healing hands or no healing hands, but his gratitude(!) to Aragorn for saving Faramir might lead to him being much more accommodating as an ally than he would otherwise be.

But also, sometimes it’s not out of strict necessity—perhaps Elrond “only” requires the restoration of Arnor for Arwen’s hand and so that’s the overriding goal that Aragorn focuses on, (rightly) trusting Faramir to have his back in Gondor. (And/or he himself wants to prioritize Arnor; he could, of course, become King of Gondor but largely leave it in Faramir’s hands while dealing with Arnor, and I sort of wrote a fic where this is the case, but ehhh.)

Or there’s some vague idea where Elrond’s conditions are the same and Aragorn has to make a very hard choice, but makes it nevertheless, and it’s Elrond who ultimately concedes, accepting a future for Arwen as “only” Queen of Arnor. This works most easily with alive!Denethor, but idk, part of me prefers the idea of it as an independent choice even though I’m really into scenarios where Denethor survives.

The thing is, of course, that Aragorn in the book is so focused on becoming King of Gondor and feels so strongly that it is his right to do so that it takes a lot of finagling to make it work. It’s just not probable for his character.

…and yet.

Tagged: #legendarium fanwank #putting that one there to be safe since it's kind of intrinsically wanky #éowyn: no longer do i wish to be a queen #faramir: well technically you wouldn't be... #aww but éowyn as the ranking lady of gondor is also really charming to me #i know that at the end of the day it's no less monarchist but ... i like and want it

But my memory reaches back even to the Elder Days. Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

—Elrond ðŸ’–

Tagged: #elrond publicly tracing /elwing's/ family tree to underscore his life and heritage is just ... :') #and that the person he goes back to is lúthien... yesgood

[Note: cross-posting this out of sequence because I seem to have missed it earlier and a later post references it]

I love the Tindómiel/Undómiel thing not only because Elrond names his only daughter to match Elros’s only daughter (though I do).

And I love it not only because the two names act as counterparts in terms of their relationships to their people: the morning star of Númenor, the evenstar of the Elves (though I do).

I also really, really love it because the morning star and the evening star are the same star: Eärendil.

Tagged: #they named their daughters for their dad :') #and i think it's legit interesting to see priorities there? #in naming i mean #like #2/3 of elrond's kids are named in the sinda family pattern #from elwing #while elros just went all out and named two of his for the valar #his firstborn is named for elbereth!! which seems a very elvish (and esp sindarin) sort of thing #they both have a reference to men in some of the names #but elrond does it with his firstborn kids while elros doesn't until the ... fourth iirc? #again: not what you'd assume! #but the daughters get the Peak Symbolism and that's as eärendil's heiresses #:)))))))))))

I still think about the translation of Elladan as “Elf-Númenórean.”

People always correct me about this, but it’s Tolkien’s translation, and … I mean, of course there’s its implication that Elrond considers his children Númenóreans in some capacity, and therefore himself, as Aragorn suggests in LOTR. That’s just !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (seriously, Númenórean Elrond is everything).

But I also think the very thing that people correct me over is interesting—the translation of adan as “Númenórean” rather than “human” or even “related to the Edain.” There are absolutely Edainic peoples in the Third Age who aren’t Númenórean, like the Dunlendings (kin of the Haladin). But there are at least some contexts in which adan does not refer to them but exclusively to Númenóreans, because … ?????

We do know that Elrohir, at least, was named in a Númenórean dialect of Sindarin (it would be Elrochir in classical Sindarin). Tolkien pretty persistently associates that dialect with Gondor, which is also interesting, but the children are born early enough that it seems the linguistic evolution must have happened quite rapidly after the fall of Númenor (if it was a Gondorian shift).

Perhaps it reflected a perception among the Númenórean refugees that they were the last people to be Edain in any meaningful sense. Maybe it was something else! But at the least, the shift seems to indicate a strong association between Edainic and Númenórean identity in the eyes of the Dúnedain.

#like ... it's Problematic(TM) #but there is part of me that really enjoys how thoroughly the númenóreans align themselves with the edain #fandom tends to treat them as bargain elves or attribute everything about them to remote elvish ancestors #when they're distinguished as a people at all #but they're like EDAIN EDAIN EDAIN

Someone I follow on Tumblr has switched their icon to ROP Elrond and it's made me very happy (even though I can't bring myself to change my Leia icon for love or money, lol).