Anghraine

sulfin-evend said:

I love your take on Gondor. What do you make of Boromir's quote in the council of Elrond paraphrasing "those who shelter behind us give us much praise but little help". I presume he is talking about other Gondorians. And the Stewards are often referred to as Lords of Minas Tirth or lord of the city.

What does this mean for how Gondor and its provinces view themselves and how its armies function. Are the Princes of Dol Amroth minting their own coin? Do the lords of Morthond present their daughters at the Stewards court? Are all the lords related to each other in a tangle of blood and marriage ties or do they keep to their home fiefs? It could be envisioned so many ways I am curious to read your perspective.

I replied:

Thanks!

I’ve always taken the opposite reading of Boromir’s line—that he’s talking about the peoples of Middle-earth sheltering behind Gondor generally, and this is why (if I’m remembering correctly) the others at the council go out of their way to point out that it’s not just Gondor that’s protecting the people of Middle-earth.

That said, Tolkien described the Princes of Dol Amroth as almost independent, but not quite; they’re “tributary princes” who contribute … something … to Gondor as a state. So while it might not look exactly like taxation as we’d understand it and could refer to things other than money, I do think it suggests some degree of cohesion, if even the Princes of Dol Amroth (definitely the most powerful and independent of the regional nobles) have to contribute to the whole.

We do see that the fiefs have a lot of authority when it comes to what troops they raise and where they send them. They only sent 1/10th of the forces at their command to help defend Minas Tirith because they were so worried about their own people, and seem to have been entirely free to make that call (and the people of Minas Tirith are disappointed but not enraged). So there’s still quite a bit of regional power in the military sense, at least. But Tolkien also said that a Dúnadan king or Ruling Steward was a fairly absolute ruler in other ways (esp dealing with interpretation of law), so it may be that the lords’ authority is particularly pronounced in military matters and more limited in others.

I do imagine that there would be a lot of intermarriage between the Dúnadan noble families, given that there are only so many of them. While Gondorians have less hang-ups about ~purity than in the Kinstrife days, I think it’s still something people are conscious of, as with Éowyn’s joke that Faramir’s people will wonder why he didn’t choose a woman “of the race of Númenor” to be his wife (she doesn’t seem to think her ¼ Númenórean ancestry will count for Gondorians).

IMO it’s entirely probable that the Stewards and Princes of Dol Amroth have intermarried multiple times, say—not with first cousins (I think that taboo became pretty non-negotiable post-Akallabêth), but more distant connections. Perhaps Imrahil is recognizable as part-Elvish to Legolas despite the generational distance from Mithrellas because Imrahil’s actually descended from her many times over. Etc.

[ETA 5/24/2024: sulfin-evend did respond to this, but given that they acknowledged being "contrary" in this interaction and that they defended Elrond's profoundly racist characterization of modern Gondor, I didn't feel inclined to reply again.]

chestnut_pod left an intriguing comment on my post here in terms of racial purity/elitism in regard to Gondor c. LOTR and the characterization of contemporary Gondor by other characters, most glaringly Elrond. I started to reply more concisely, but the rant grew, so I'm just posting it here:

I always struggle with the reality that much of what Elrond says about Gondor at the Council is objectively wrong as well as repugnant, but the narrative doesn't really frame any of it as incorrect or morally dubious or a reflection on his character at all (despite the semi-corrections made by Faramir later, which somewhat ameliorates this, but only somewhat). In fact, the person who is framed as suspect in the Council interactions is Boromir for being offended and "rudely" outspoken about it (both on behalf of Gondor and Rohan) in addition to being ambivalent (not even especially negative! just unsure!) about the practical significance of Aragorn's pure royal blood.

Elrond also glorifies Gondor's former imperial power through comparison with Númenor's. His regret over Gondor's decay is tied to ideas of racial impurity (which in Gondor is a direct consequence of Númenórean and Gondorian imperialism, and which in any case is a bizarre characterization choice for him specifically) and to Gondor's inability to sustain its empire. I feel like all these sentiments are treated in the text as pretty understandable and sympathetic and right-thinking, even if Elrond turns out to be mistaken about some specific things.

Basically, it feels like the general perspective is that the Stewards were wise to move towards a more diverse and integrated Gondorian society, to recruit outsiders, to do what was necessary to keep Gondor standing and opposing Sauron where multiple purer and more insular factions failed. They were wise to relinquish imperial holdings they didn't have the power or inclination to control. But this stuff also seems to be treated as a regrettable necessity. All this is tragic and everyone who cares is kind of sad about it. As a result, Elrond's melancholy over modern Gondor, while mistaken on specific points, seems somewhat validated by the narrative framework.

For instance, in the description of the (100% heroic) people of Lebennin, we can see that element of reservation about modern Gondor with regard to race and racial mixing:


And I think Aragorn and his royal purebloodedness are deeply bound up in this. To an extent, this framework also validates the Northern Dúnedain's prioritization of Númenórean purity above all else. The negative extreme of their position is mediated through Gondor (in the Kinstrife) and then (~sadly but necessarily) becomes less of a priority over time. Thus Gondor survives through "hard" choices like "sustaining the population through interracial marriage" and "including local indigenous people as full citizens." So there's still a substantial polity left for the ultimate result of the Northern Dúnedain's blood purity—Aragorn—to rule over and "restore". But the Northern Dúnedain themselves don't have to compromise their valuation of purity for this to occur, and in fact, the purity they so carefully maintained in the royal line only makes it all the more natural for Aragorn to rule over the racially and culturally "impure" Gondorians and to forge their nation into a new, kinder and gentler(...) empire.

Further tangent: It's unsurprising that Tolkien struggled a bit with figuring out who would be suitable for Aragorn to marry and thus whose blood would mingle with his into the next generation. If I recall correctly, Arwen was created pretty specifically to be Aragorn's queen and to reinforce his bloodline (this was done in a fairly evocative way, but still). I do get why Tolkien felt Éowyn was too young etc for Aragorn, and I prefer Faramir/Éowyn by a mile, but I am not convinced that Éowyn's "lesser" racial status (in-world) was not also part of the calculus.

Anyway, I guess Aragorn's rule is the intended compromise between Faramir's explicit "a king would be nice but not dominating other people" and the various awful imperial legacies at play. But it feels to me like the suggestion here is that the problem is doing empire wrong rather than doing empire at all.

I do think that Tolkien had pretty messy feelings about this and you can see him trying to complicate various aspects in some of his post-LOTR writings. LOTR frames early Númenórean imperialism as uncomplicated benevolence towards, I think he said, "lesser" races of men; over a very long time, their dominance in Middle-earth becomes corrupted and nightmarish. But by "The Mariner's Wife," it's evident that their involvement was morally compromised and horrific from day 1, yet Tolkien also tries to complicate that with Aldarion's mixed motives (partly it's straightforward empire-building for its own sake, but partly he's trying to prepare for a very real threat and Ancalimë's refusal to continue his policies in Middle-earth is not exactly bad but certainly not good). Tolkien even argues in Peoples of Middle-earth that the High Men/Middle Men/Wild (or Dark!) Men distinction in LOTR is entirely about cultural affinity for "The West" rather than race as such (I doubt this was quite the intention in LOTR itself), and moreover adds that plenty of people had pretty good reasons for cultural opposition to "The West" because of devastation previously wreaked by Western powers like Númenor. (The subtext is not subtle.)

But I think there's always this partly-aesthetic, partly just racist appeal of the "good" empire ruled by a(n ideally pureblooded & superior) racial elite for him, alongside his ever-increasing skepticism about what this entails and what it can lead to and if it will inevitably be corrupted and how that interacts with (in his view) the intrinsically fallen nature of humanity. So it's a mess and there are these points of reservation and skepticism and outright criticism of things like racism and empire and the interrelationship between them embedded within his work that can give us some room to maneuver, I guess? But the overarching trends voiced by characters like Elrond and Aragorn are still really present and unavoidable.

An anon said:

I dislike Aragorn's claim to the throne: he's the descendant of a deposed dynasty, and the only reason he has any claim at all is because the current dynasty didn't want to call themselves kings. He's a war-hero, and a talented general, and won the heart of the people of Gondor thru some flashy theatrics, but the fact of the matter is that he wants Gondor's throne because he wants to marry his girlfriend, not because he cares about the well-being of Gondor.

I replied:

Hmmm. I’m broadly sympathetic to this, though I disagree to some extent in the particulars. I wouldn’t say the Isildurioni were deposed, just conquered, though they are indeed very lucky that the Stewardship never morphed into an established kingship over a nearly thousand-year-long reign. I also wouldn’t call Aragorn’s rescue of southern Gondor merely theatrical; I think it’s where he’s most legitimately heroic in terms of the people of Gondor. Ultimately, I think it makes him more of an Eärnil figure than an Arvedui, which makes him more palatable to me.

I am really ambivalent about his motivations, though. He does seem to feel a certain alignment with Gondor on account of his ancestry, and we don’t hear about his other motivation within the main body of LOTR (iirc). While the association with Gondor can take on a decidedly entitled flavor (as in the linked quote), I do think it suggests it’s not wholly on Arwen’s account that he’s seeking the kingship. I certainly would like more of a sense of how he thinks and feels about Gondor’s people, though.

Nevertheless, overall I think his claim as inherited from Arvedui is pretty messy and requires a lot of things beyond the merits of the claim going right for him. It’s not like his own abilities and virtues have nothing to do with his success; indeed, the messiness of his claim is what makes his abilities so necessary. But the idea that he’s the rightful king of Gondor by blood alone is something that I think is super questionable; I really do think Aragorn becomes king in a way that other heirs of Isildur were not.

It’s occurred to me that two of my least favorite scenes in two very different adaptations are … basically the same.

(Predictably, ranting negativity re: Jackson’s LOTR and Davies’s P&P under the cut)

( Read more... )

An anon responded to the headcanon meme:

♥ faramir

I replied:

♥ = family headcanon

Normally I would go for either the holy quartet of Denethor, Finduilas, Boromir, and Faramir or something to do with Lothíriel, but I’ve actually been thinking about something else—not really to do with blood.

So, one of the responsibilities of the Steward is representing the king when he’s away (rather than this falling to another member of the royal family). This is why Mardil was running things after Eärnur rode off. So when Aragorn is off at war, Faramir would generally be the one ruling Gondor. And apparently there are a lot of wars in the earlier decades of Aragorn’s reign that send Aragorn and Éomer abroad pretty often.

Meanwhile, Arwen is … you know, right there. So my basic headcanon is that Faramir and Arwen at first have a tentative respect that leads Faramir and Arwen to consult with each other about the management of Gondor even though Faramir is technically in charge. And that the initial tentative respect deepens into real friendship, all the more as they have certain common interests and priorities (I imagine Arwen is also a lover of music and lore, say).

(And, more unhappily, they have common fates; in some ways they’re the last gasps of fading peoples, ‘springless autumn,’ and they’re each going to watch the one they love die before them.)

I imagine that Eldarion and his sisters are born in the midst of all this (as are Elfwinë and his siblings in Rohan, but that’s a different story). Arwen, I think, wants her children with her as much as possible, while Faramir is also frequently with her for administrative/friendship reasons, so he’s around the children a lot. I think he’d be good with children, and—anyway, this is a lot of words to say that my headcanon is that he’s not only good with these ones, but quickly becomes an affectionate uncle in all but name to the prince and princesses, and they love him in turn. :’)

I reblogged a meme about Faramir (not movie Faramir, for once!) and added:

#having feelings about my other fave too :')

[ETA 2/28/2024: There is a very special fannish pain to being a hardline stan of both Denethor and Faramir!]

Speaking of Faramir’s canon appearance, I feel like Boromir’s also doesn’t get quite the appreciation it merits?

• There was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed
• His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed
• "Where now is Boromir the Fair?" (Legolas)
• "His head so proud, his face so fair, his limbs they laid to rest"
• "His face was more beautiful even than in life." (Faramir)

Is he attractive??? We may never know

#i think there's this thing where ... boromir is more of an eorling type temperamentally and it gets kind of extended to his appearance #to the point that he's not treated as a /real/ dúnadan #but he is! tolkien emphasizes this in his description of boromir's height but also just... generally #he may not have the superpowers or temperament but he is still a númenórean in appearance and history BYE #gorgeous hulking númenórean boromir is very important okay #(just imagine f!boromir... anyway)

It’s obviously not the worst part of that wtf take on the Stewards, but “most notably” Ecthelion? Over Mardil? Boromir? Cirion?

Pffft.

#but ecthelion liked aragorn so that makes him the best steward of them all #>_> #tbh cirion is probably the best ruler gondor ever had

In POME, there’s a comment to the effect of … the Stewards ruled well, but they didn’t go invading other countries or trying to “reclaim” the old empire or anything like that, just gave up territory to preserve the rest of Gondor.

And I’m just like? good for them???

#and then the kings go empire-building again and it's just... /sigh #i have a ... louder post about this with the exact quote somewhere but i'm too lazy to look it up