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Tumblr crosspost (25 April 2020)
emily-elizabeth-rose said:
Re your meta on Ladies Catherine and Anne being close due to a distant father, I realised that Lady C was likely not close with her brother the Earl. Her father likely doting on the son while being distant to the girls causing resentment. So even with Darcy slow to marry Anne, Col. Fitzwilliam not raised as an alternative, even though he would come to Rosings rather than Anne leaving. Why not Col. Fitz? Because Lady C doesn't like the Earl and doesn't want his son to marry her daughter :0
I replied:
Hmm. While we know that Lady Catherine firmly believes daughters never matter to their fathers, which presumably extends to her relationship with her own father, all we know about her relationship with her brother is that his son comes to visit her. So it’s hard to extrapolate much from that. It does seem probable that someone with Lady Catherine’s personality would likely not have taken favouritism over her well, but the form that displeasure would have taken …?
The question I have isn’t about Colonel Fitzwilliam, since marrying a younger son without a significant fortune of his own wouldn’t be a great match for Anne. Sole, well-born heiresses of large estates were rare, and could hold out for very good matches; Fitzwilliam would only be a real possibility if Lady Catherine was absolutely set on Anne marrying within the family and his older brother was already married.
The real question, for me, is why Lady Catherine preferred baby Darcy over the viscount.
We know Fitzwilliam has an older brother, who would be heir to the earldom and whatever property the Fitzwilliams possess. You’d think he’d be the best match for Anne of the three other Fitzwilliams, while Anne would be a good match for anyone, on paper.
And, swerving a bit: because the “engagement” was arranged from Darcy’s earliest hours, and he and Anne were in their cradles at the same time, it’s probable that a) they’re close in age and b) he’s actually the younger of the two. This gives us a rough timeline.
Darcy was a newborn. Anne was maybe a few months old. The future Colonel Fitzwilliam was around two. The older brother was, well, older than that, but probably not by that much—in the 3-10 year range, let’s say. Because we know the three younger cousins are close in age and it seems likely enough that all four are, it’s probable that all three boys are too young for Lady Catherine to have chosen based on their future personalities.
It’s easy to see why she would have picked the heir to the Pemberley estates and the ancient Darcy family name and apparently quite a lot of influence over toddler Fitzwilliam. But it’s a bit more confusing when you consider the existence of the viscount. So it’s possible that she gave Darcy the preference not only because of what he could offer Anne (her daughter), but because he was the son of Anne (her sister).
What she herself emphasizes, in her diatribe to Elizabeth, is that a) Darcy and Anne come from impeccable, overlapping family trees, b) they both have splendid fortunes that would become super ultra splendid if joined together, and c) she and Lady Anne really really really wanted it. So I tend to assume that all three are contributing reasons.
That is, I think it’s possible that she and Lady Anne were plotting the advancement of their children together because it was a good match for both children and because she and Lady Anne were close, given that each child arguably could have made a better match than each other (Darcy could marry for less money, since he doesn’t need it, and higher rank than a knight or baronet’s daughter; Anne could hold out for a man with fortune, ancient name, and a title).
There’s also a possible variant of this, where it partially happens because they’re close, but also, Darcy/Anne is legitimately the best possible marriage within the family.
We don’t know that the Fitzwilliams are actually rich. They might be stretched a little thin—maybe that’s why Lady Catherine and Lady Anne both married rich commoners, however well-born and powerful those commoners may have been, and partially why Colonel Fitzwilliam considers himself poor (lol). In that case, Lady Catherine and Lady Anne might very well care more about wealth than peerages.
Or the Fitzwilliam title might just … not be very old. Lady Catherine emphasizes that the Darcys and de Bourghs are ancient families. Maybe the Fitzwilliams aren’t. Think of Sir Walter Elliot looking down on a lord because it’s a new title, even though he’s very impressed by nobility in general. He’s ridiculous, but that’s the point—Austen’s ridiculing that kind of common attitude. It’s possible that Lady Catherine’s/Lady Anne’s/Lord ___’s father was, say, only the second Earl Whatever and the family is very conscious of it.
In that case, Darcy and Anne’s marriage would reinforce the Darcys’ and de Bourghs’ connections to nobility and reinforce the Fitzwilliams’ connections to ancient families by uniting the Darcys and de Bourghs via Darcy’s and Anne’s shared Fitzwilliam blood and combine their wealth into a vast fortune for Lady Catherine’s and Lady Anne’s children and grandchildren and Lady Catherine and Lady Anne are close and joining their families would make them happy.
This is long and speculative, so the short version: I think it’s possible that Lady Catherine was laser-focused on Darcy marrying Anne in part because of her closeness to her sister and the arrangement they made together, but I do think she probably had the additional motives she states in P&P in some form or another.
Re your meta on Ladies Catherine and Anne being close due to a distant father, I realised that Lady C was likely not close with her brother the Earl. Her father likely doting on the son while being distant to the girls causing resentment. So even with Darcy slow to marry Anne, Col. Fitzwilliam not raised as an alternative, even though he would come to Rosings rather than Anne leaving. Why not Col. Fitz? Because Lady C doesn't like the Earl and doesn't want his son to marry her daughter :0
I replied:
Hmm. While we know that Lady Catherine firmly believes daughters never matter to their fathers, which presumably extends to her relationship with her own father, all we know about her relationship with her brother is that his son comes to visit her. So it’s hard to extrapolate much from that. It does seem probable that someone with Lady Catherine’s personality would likely not have taken favouritism over her well, but the form that displeasure would have taken …?
The question I have isn’t about Colonel Fitzwilliam, since marrying a younger son without a significant fortune of his own wouldn’t be a great match for Anne. Sole, well-born heiresses of large estates were rare, and could hold out for very good matches; Fitzwilliam would only be a real possibility if Lady Catherine was absolutely set on Anne marrying within the family and his older brother was already married.
The real question, for me, is why Lady Catherine preferred baby Darcy over the viscount.
We know Fitzwilliam has an older brother, who would be heir to the earldom and whatever property the Fitzwilliams possess. You’d think he’d be the best match for Anne of the three other Fitzwilliams, while Anne would be a good match for anyone, on paper.
And, swerving a bit: because the “engagement” was arranged from Darcy’s earliest hours, and he and Anne were in their cradles at the same time, it’s probable that a) they’re close in age and b) he’s actually the younger of the two. This gives us a rough timeline.
Darcy was a newborn. Anne was maybe a few months old. The future Colonel Fitzwilliam was around two. The older brother was, well, older than that, but probably not by that much—in the 3-10 year range, let’s say. Because we know the three younger cousins are close in age and it seems likely enough that all four are, it’s probable that all three boys are too young for Lady Catherine to have chosen based on their future personalities.
It’s easy to see why she would have picked the heir to the Pemberley estates and the ancient Darcy family name and apparently quite a lot of influence over toddler Fitzwilliam. But it’s a bit more confusing when you consider the existence of the viscount. So it’s possible that she gave Darcy the preference not only because of what he could offer Anne (her daughter), but because he was the son of Anne (her sister).
What she herself emphasizes, in her diatribe to Elizabeth, is that a) Darcy and Anne come from impeccable, overlapping family trees, b) they both have splendid fortunes that would become super ultra splendid if joined together, and c) she and Lady Anne really really really wanted it. So I tend to assume that all three are contributing reasons.
That is, I think it’s possible that she and Lady Anne were plotting the advancement of their children together because it was a good match for both children and because she and Lady Anne were close, given that each child arguably could have made a better match than each other (Darcy could marry for less money, since he doesn’t need it, and higher rank than a knight or baronet’s daughter; Anne could hold out for a man with fortune, ancient name, and a title).
There’s also a possible variant of this, where it partially happens because they’re close, but also, Darcy/Anne is legitimately the best possible marriage within the family.
We don’t know that the Fitzwilliams are actually rich. They might be stretched a little thin—maybe that’s why Lady Catherine and Lady Anne both married rich commoners, however well-born and powerful those commoners may have been, and partially why Colonel Fitzwilliam considers himself poor (lol). In that case, Lady Catherine and Lady Anne might very well care more about wealth than peerages.
Or the Fitzwilliam title might just … not be very old. Lady Catherine emphasizes that the Darcys and de Bourghs are ancient families. Maybe the Fitzwilliams aren’t. Think of Sir Walter Elliot looking down on a lord because it’s a new title, even though he’s very impressed by nobility in general. He’s ridiculous, but that’s the point—Austen’s ridiculing that kind of common attitude. It’s possible that Lady Catherine’s/Lady Anne’s/Lord ___’s father was, say, only the second Earl Whatever and the family is very conscious of it.
In that case, Darcy and Anne’s marriage would reinforce the Darcys’ and de Bourghs’ connections to nobility and reinforce the Fitzwilliams’ connections to ancient families by uniting the Darcys and de Bourghs via Darcy’s and Anne’s shared Fitzwilliam blood and combine their wealth into a vast fortune for Lady Catherine’s and Lady Anne’s children and grandchildren and Lady Catherine and Lady Anne are close and joining their families would make them happy.
This is long and speculative, so the short version: I think it’s possible that Lady Catherine was laser-focused on Darcy marrying Anne in part because of her closeness to her sister and the arrangement they made together, but I do think she probably had the additional motives she states in P&P in some form or another.