![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
ngl I have yet to read any justification for Aragorn's argument that Théoden's edicts should not apply to him in Rohan that I didn't find deeply annoying.
I just saw yet another one on Tumblr, which ultimately was not very different from the rest. The argument was that given actual Anglo-Saxon customs, it is Théoden's requirement that everyone relinquish their weapons (often great heirlooms, which Andúril is) that is unreasonable, not Aragorn's distaste for doing so. In other permutations, it's Háma who is being short-sighted in not accepting Aragorn's greater authority. But essentially the idea is that Théoden's command itself is sketchy and Aragorn is the one being reasonable.
None of this addresses the actual problem, though, which Háma himself does.
Yes, Théoden's insistence that warriors relinquish their swords or other weapons is clearly framed as dubious and a marker of Gríma's malign influence over him, much like the use of the Rohirrim's language as a shibboleth. This is perfectly evident even without bringing in Anglo-Saxon history. Yes, Aragorn has good reason to be uneasy about leaving Andúril lying around with a random door warden. None of that is the problem.
Aragorn does not only argue that Théoden's decree with regard to weaponry in his hall is a bad idea. He argues that it is not his (Aragorn's) will to give up his weapon and that "it is not clear to me" that Théoden's will as king of Rohan should override his own as heir of Elendil "of Gondor."
There are a number of issues at play here:
I just saw yet another one on Tumblr, which ultimately was not very different from the rest. The argument was that given actual Anglo-Saxon customs, it is Théoden's requirement that everyone relinquish their weapons (often great heirlooms, which Andúril is) that is unreasonable, not Aragorn's distaste for doing so. In other permutations, it's Háma who is being short-sighted in not accepting Aragorn's greater authority. But essentially the idea is that Théoden's command itself is sketchy and Aragorn is the one being reasonable.
None of this addresses the actual problem, though, which Háma himself does.
Yes, Théoden's insistence that warriors relinquish their swords or other weapons is clearly framed as dubious and a marker of Gríma's malign influence over him, much like the use of the Rohirrim's language as a shibboleth. This is perfectly evident even without bringing in Anglo-Saxon history. Yes, Aragorn has good reason to be uneasy about leaving Andúril lying around with a random door warden. None of that is the problem.
Aragorn does not only argue that Théoden's decree with regard to weaponry in his hall is a bad idea. He argues that it is not his (Aragorn's) will to give up his weapon and that "it is not clear to me" that Théoden's will as king of Rohan should override his own as heir of Elendil "of Gondor."
There are a number of issues at play here:
1) Aragorn elides his specific position as "heir of Isildur" here into the more general "heir of Elendil," which is significant, because while that does make him officially the heir of Elendil, the claim of the heirs of Isildur specifically has been legally rejected by Gondor since before Rohan existed.
2) Aragorn's description of himself as "Elendil's heir of Gondor" is rather weird because it suggests that Aragorn himself is "of Gondor" at the present moment, which he is not. At this time, he is not from Gondor in any capacity in which that descriptor would normally be used that way. Even if you read it more as "heir of Gondor" rather than "Aragorn [...] of Gondor," it's dubious for the same reason as in #1. He is not generally referred to as heir to the throne of Gondor or whatnot in the book; he is a claimant to Gondor's crown (via a long-rejected and disputable ancestral claim) who fully believes in the righteousness of his claim, but who is never in a million years going to be accepted as king by any Gondorians with the authority to make the determination without great deeds and popular support.
3) Even if none of that were true, though, it also would not be the crux of the issue. Rohan was originally created by Gondor, and is in perpetual alliance with Gondor, but it is a sovereign nation. As Háma says, even if Aragorn were currently ruling Gondor in Denethor's place (which he isn't), that would not entitle him to override Théoden's will in Rohan. Rohan is not a vassal state of Gondor, or subject to Gondor, and even a king of Gondor could not dictate the terms of Théoden's rule to him.
I honestly think Háma is 100% correct. Théoden being paranoid about weapons in his own hall may be unwise and unreasonable, but this is not a matter that Gondor has any authority over, nor should. Additionally, there is a kind of imperial subtext to this.
Rohan is a considerably smaller, less powerful, and much newer nation than Gondor, overshadowed by the military and cultural dominance of their Gondorian allies. Théoden's father was directly in the service of the Steward of Gondor before inheriting the throne of Rohan, while Théoden's mother was a Gondorian Dúnadan, and their arrival in Rohan (when Théoden was a child) led to a certain amount of controversial Gondorization in Rohan. Rohan has also influenced Gondor, but the power dynamics are very much in Gondor's favor. Although the two nations are allied and Gondor has occasionally helped Rohan, it's usually the Rohirrim fighting (and dying) for Gondor rather than the other way around. In addition, the Rohirrim are broadly considered ethnically inferior to Gondorians, especially to Gondorian Dúnedain, and are very evidently aware of this.
I don't want to treat this completely cynically, because the relationship between Gondor and Rohan is important, largely well-intentioned, and complex, and there are ways in which both benefit from it. But it is an unequal relationship to be sure, one in which Gondor does not directly command Rohan (Denethor's message to Théoden is very careful about this), but where Gondor can and does exert soft power in Rohan in many ways, and the Rohirrim themselves are conscious of this. For instance, Gondorians do not really use terms from the language of the Rohirrim and do not appear to generally learn it. Meanwhile, the Rohirrim widely speak the lingua franca of Gondor, Westron/Common, largely for the purpose of communication with Gondorians, but even sometimes with each other. According to Tolkien, the Westron of Rohan is directly derived from the Westron of Minas Tirith, and the pronunciation and accent of Rohirrim using it would sound markedly similar to the Gondorian accent. Moreover, Rohan and Rohirrim are actually the Gondorian terms for the country and people (via the dialect of Sindarin used in some parts of Gondor), but have become commonly used among the Rohirrim alongside their own terms for themselves (the Mark, the Riddermark, Eorlingas, etc). Gondorians almost never use any of the Rohirrim's terms for Gondor/Gondorians, though.
So Aragorn's suggestion that, as heir of Elendil and claimant to Gondor's throne, his authority should supersede Théoden's while in Rohan is rather fraught. Why should even an actual king of Gondor have any authority whatsoever over Théoden's rules for his own hall? You essentially have to buy into Gondorian (and particularly Númenórean) supremacy to make that argument. And the idea that a stranger who is neither Rohirrim nor Gondorian, but who has an extremely remote and controversial claim to the Gondorian throne, should because of that claim be able to override Théoden's authority within Meduseld itself, requires an even higher degree of investment in Gondorian/Númenórean supremacy. The characters themselves might feel that, but I don't think it's something that we should be validating as actually good and righteous.
The only justification that does not wholly play into this, as far as I've seen, is the idea that Aragorn is essentially staging his fit over Andúril to enable Gandalf to keep the staff. I am not really convinced that this is all that's going on, or even all that likely to be what's going on at all (Aragorn's response to Gandalf making him leave Andúril while keeping his own staff does not suggest calculation to me). I think that a) Aragorn does have a streak of entitlement and pride that's affronted here, b) Aragorn very much buys into Gondorian/Númenórean supremacy, esp as it pertains to himself, and this affects the formulation of his response, and c) Aragorn is much more aggressive about these things in Rohan because the Rohirrim's culture prizes that kind of assertiveness and self-glorification, even if some of them don't care for specific political implications. He is vastly more careful, discreet, and humble when he's in Gondor itself, where that kind of display is much less normalized—either because he's grown as a person, or out of high adaptability to differing cultural norms. Or both.
But no, I do not like the argument he makes in the scene, I don't think it is valid in itself, I do think it is fundamentally rooted in in-world racism and the Dúnedain's long history of imperialism, and at best, it is more tactical than anything else. #hámadidnothingwrong
2) Aragorn's description of himself as "Elendil's heir of Gondor" is rather weird because it suggests that Aragorn himself is "of Gondor" at the present moment, which he is not. At this time, he is not from Gondor in any capacity in which that descriptor would normally be used that way. Even if you read it more as "heir of Gondor" rather than "Aragorn [...] of Gondor," it's dubious for the same reason as in #1. He is not generally referred to as heir to the throne of Gondor or whatnot in the book; he is a claimant to Gondor's crown (via a long-rejected and disputable ancestral claim) who fully believes in the righteousness of his claim, but who is never in a million years going to be accepted as king by any Gondorians with the authority to make the determination without great deeds and popular support.
3) Even if none of that were true, though, it also would not be the crux of the issue. Rohan was originally created by Gondor, and is in perpetual alliance with Gondor, but it is a sovereign nation. As Háma says, even if Aragorn were currently ruling Gondor in Denethor's place (which he isn't), that would not entitle him to override Théoden's will in Rohan. Rohan is not a vassal state of Gondor, or subject to Gondor, and even a king of Gondor could not dictate the terms of Théoden's rule to him.
I honestly think Háma is 100% correct. Théoden being paranoid about weapons in his own hall may be unwise and unreasonable, but this is not a matter that Gondor has any authority over, nor should. Additionally, there is a kind of imperial subtext to this.
Rohan is a considerably smaller, less powerful, and much newer nation than Gondor, overshadowed by the military and cultural dominance of their Gondorian allies. Théoden's father was directly in the service of the Steward of Gondor before inheriting the throne of Rohan, while Théoden's mother was a Gondorian Dúnadan, and their arrival in Rohan (when Théoden was a child) led to a certain amount of controversial Gondorization in Rohan. Rohan has also influenced Gondor, but the power dynamics are very much in Gondor's favor. Although the two nations are allied and Gondor has occasionally helped Rohan, it's usually the Rohirrim fighting (and dying) for Gondor rather than the other way around. In addition, the Rohirrim are broadly considered ethnically inferior to Gondorians, especially to Gondorian Dúnedain, and are very evidently aware of this.
I don't want to treat this completely cynically, because the relationship between Gondor and Rohan is important, largely well-intentioned, and complex, and there are ways in which both benefit from it. But it is an unequal relationship to be sure, one in which Gondor does not directly command Rohan (Denethor's message to Théoden is very careful about this), but where Gondor can and does exert soft power in Rohan in many ways, and the Rohirrim themselves are conscious of this. For instance, Gondorians do not really use terms from the language of the Rohirrim and do not appear to generally learn it. Meanwhile, the Rohirrim widely speak the lingua franca of Gondor, Westron/Common, largely for the purpose of communication with Gondorians, but even sometimes with each other. According to Tolkien, the Westron of Rohan is directly derived from the Westron of Minas Tirith, and the pronunciation and accent of Rohirrim using it would sound markedly similar to the Gondorian accent. Moreover, Rohan and Rohirrim are actually the Gondorian terms for the country and people (via the dialect of Sindarin used in some parts of Gondor), but have become commonly used among the Rohirrim alongside their own terms for themselves (the Mark, the Riddermark, Eorlingas, etc). Gondorians almost never use any of the Rohirrim's terms for Gondor/Gondorians, though.
So Aragorn's suggestion that, as heir of Elendil and claimant to Gondor's throne, his authority should supersede Théoden's while in Rohan is rather fraught. Why should even an actual king of Gondor have any authority whatsoever over Théoden's rules for his own hall? You essentially have to buy into Gondorian (and particularly Númenórean) supremacy to make that argument. And the idea that a stranger who is neither Rohirrim nor Gondorian, but who has an extremely remote and controversial claim to the Gondorian throne, should because of that claim be able to override Théoden's authority within Meduseld itself, requires an even higher degree of investment in Gondorian/Númenórean supremacy. The characters themselves might feel that, but I don't think it's something that we should be validating as actually good and righteous.
The only justification that does not wholly play into this, as far as I've seen, is the idea that Aragorn is essentially staging his fit over Andúril to enable Gandalf to keep the staff. I am not really convinced that this is all that's going on, or even all that likely to be what's going on at all (Aragorn's response to Gandalf making him leave Andúril while keeping his own staff does not suggest calculation to me). I think that a) Aragorn does have a streak of entitlement and pride that's affronted here, b) Aragorn very much buys into Gondorian/Númenórean supremacy, esp as it pertains to himself, and this affects the formulation of his response, and c) Aragorn is much more aggressive about these things in Rohan because the Rohirrim's culture prizes that kind of assertiveness and self-glorification, even if some of them don't care for specific political implications. He is vastly more careful, discreet, and humble when he's in Gondor itself, where that kind of display is much less normalized—either because he's grown as a person, or out of high adaptability to differing cultural norms. Or both.
But no, I do not like the argument he makes in the scene, I don't think it is valid in itself, I do think it is fundamentally rooted in in-world racism and the Dúnedain's long history of imperialism, and at best, it is more tactical than anything else. #hámadidnothingwrong
no subject
Arvedui's claim was rejected. However, Aragorn is also descended from the Kings of Gondor by way of Firiel, Arvedui's wife and widow. By Numenorian law, inheritance through the female line is entirely valid.
no subject
I don't find the argument convincing, but it's certainly one I've seen! In general any suggestion that Aragorn has any flaws whatsoever will be met with something similar.
Arvedui's claim was rejected. However, Aragorn is also descended from the Kings of Gondor by way of Firiel, Arvedui's wife and widow. By Numenorian law, inheritance through the female line is entirely valid.
I've also seen this point made many times, but I disagree, both in terms of Gondorian law c. the War of the Ring and how Aragorn represents his claim to Gondor's throne in LOTR.
Gondor is not Númenor, and neither Gondor nor Arnor/Arthedain followed Númenórean law in this respect. The heirship of Isildur, for instance, passes exclusively through a line of sons not because each heir only ever had a single son and no other children (which would beggar belief and canonically cannot actually be the case), but because only the firstborn son "counts" under the male-line primogeniture that the Dúnedain of Middle-earth attempt to follow for their entire history (whereas on Númenor, the firstborn child would inherit regardless of gender, even if there was a younger son—Gondor and Arnor are very definitely not operating according to Númenórean law).
In addition, Arvedui claimed the throne as both heir of Isildur (which he wasn't at the time) and as Fíriel's husband on the basis of Númenórean rather than Gondorian law. His argument about Númenórean law is not true; Fíriel herself would be the heir under Númenor's law, not Arvedui, and her birthright could be transmitted to her son Aranarth and his descendants according to gender-blind seniority, but Arvedui would be a usurper if he ruled in her place or Aranarth's. And if Númenórean law were actually being followed by the Northern Dúnedain, the heirship of Isildur would not pass through the "firstborn sons only" club but through firstborn daughters as well, and Aragorn likely wouldn't even be the heir.
Regardless of that complication, though, Gondor not only ruled against the heirs of Isildur, and not only rejected Arvedui's claim through Fíriel, but explicitly ruled that the crown of Gondor could not pass through the female line in any way, since neither Arnor/Arthedain nor Gondor had ever permitted royal claims to be made through the female line. And indeed, at no point do we know of any successful royal claim ever made by or through a woman in Gondor or Arnor or Arthedain (the Stewards did manage it a couple of times within their own dynasty, but not according to the specifics of Númenor's law and they only got away with it because technically they're not royalty).
I do think the decision wrt Fíriel and Aranarth was obviously incorrect (though Gondor was right that Arnor and Arthedain had never followed the law themselves until they wanted to try to make a power grab through it). But legally speaking, Gondor's formal rejection also definitely encompassed the claims of Fíriel and her descendants. Under a thousand years of Gondorian legal precedent, Aragorn is not the heir of Anárion and cannot make a claim through that line. And Aragorn himself appears to consider the Fíriel claim the weaker one; he doesn't press it or talk about it at all in LOTR, and his formal claim towards the end of the story only mentions Valandil -> Isildur -> Elendil, not Fíriel (though she is a far more recent royal ancestor). This makes pragmatic sense given the institutional misogyny of Dúnadan society, but is rather regrettable IMO.