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anghraineAs a massive Borgia fan who is 1000% convinced that they were one of GRRM’s inspirations, the BASTARDS CANNOT HAVE THE THINGS wank going down right now is just sort of … lol.
Like, my historical problematic fave™ was the bastard son of the Pope. And he became a ruling duke who had every intention of passing over his legitimate daughter, and his illegitimate daughter and son, in favour of Giovanni Borgia, a bastard of the family whose parentage still isn’t known for sure. Because his sister, near dead of a disastrous pregnancy, asked him to.
That almost reminds me of something…
But you can go back to the Wars of the Roses proper with the Beaufort branch of the Lancastrian royalty, who were legitimized with the caveat that they were barred from the throne, but when Margaret Beaufort’s son showed up with an army LOL PSYCH.
Sure, Henry VII only got away with it because he won the battle, and certainly marrying a Plantagenet proper of the Yorkist branch solidified that victory, but the justification for showing up with the army was still descent from John of Gaunt + a connection to Henry V that wasn’t even by blood via Catherine of Valois.
Like—ofc people cared about primogeniture, but at the end of the day, your claim was only so strong as your ability to enforce it, and a weak royal claimant like William or Henry IV or Henry V (in France) or Henry VII could absolutely become king through some combination of strategy, strength, personal brilliance, ferocity, etc.
I’m also thinking of the irl matter of Henry Fitzroy vs Mary as potential heirs to Henry VIII during the marriage to Catalina, which is def the situation that Jon vs Sansa is most reminiscent of. And then there's the fact that when King Edward and his nobles tried to give the next legitimate heir (Jane Grey) preference over Henry’s illegitimate children (Mary and Elizabeth), the people outright revolted. And likewise Elizabeth’s popularity and political brilliance kept the efforts of legitimate heiress Mary Stuart and much of Catholic Europe from toppling her.
...And apart from William, that’s entirely restricting the discussion to late medieval/early Renaissance England.
original tags:
#also why gondor is 'lol pls' at the arnorian claim until aragorn shows up with dúnadan armies and routs gondor's enemies #and gains the allegiance of the rohirrim #and why the debatable distaff descent of the stewards was enough for gondor - bc they were established and effective and popular #aragorn's claim is far more remote than arvedui's but arvedui was a failure and aragorn punched mordor in the face so
Like, my historical problematic fave™ was the bastard son of the Pope. And he became a ruling duke who had every intention of passing over his legitimate daughter, and his illegitimate daughter and son, in favour of Giovanni Borgia, a bastard of the family whose parentage still isn’t known for sure. Because his sister, near dead of a disastrous pregnancy, asked him to.
But you can go back to the Wars of the Roses proper with the Beaufort branch of the Lancastrian royalty, who were legitimized with the caveat that they were barred from the throne, but when Margaret Beaufort’s son showed up with an army LOL PSYCH.
Sure, Henry VII only got away with it because he won the battle, and certainly marrying a Plantagenet proper of the Yorkist branch solidified that victory, but the justification for showing up with the army was still descent from John of Gaunt + a connection to Henry V that wasn’t even by blood via Catherine of Valois.
Like—ofc people cared about primogeniture, but at the end of the day, your claim was only so strong as your ability to enforce it, and a weak royal claimant like William or Henry IV or Henry V (in France) or Henry VII could absolutely become king through some combination of strategy, strength, personal brilliance, ferocity, etc.
I’m also thinking of the irl matter of Henry Fitzroy vs Mary as potential heirs to Henry VIII during the marriage to Catalina, which is def the situation that Jon vs Sansa is most reminiscent of. And then there's the fact that when King Edward and his nobles tried to give the next legitimate heir (Jane Grey) preference over Henry’s illegitimate children (Mary and Elizabeth), the people outright revolted. And likewise Elizabeth’s popularity and political brilliance kept the efforts of legitimate heiress Mary Stuart and much of Catholic Europe from toppling her.
...And apart from William, that’s entirely restricting the discussion to late medieval/early Renaissance England.
original tags:
#also why gondor is 'lol pls' at the arnorian claim until aragorn shows up with dúnadan armies and routs gondor's enemies #and gains the allegiance of the rohirrim #and why the debatable distaff descent of the stewards was enough for gondor - bc they were established and effective and popular #aragorn's claim is far more remote than arvedui's but arvedui was a failure and aragorn punched mordor in the face so