time for Rogue One wank, I guess?

[anghraine]

Jyn haters have been incredibly obnoxious about Jyn and Cassian's Eadu fight, but occasionally I'll see a Jyn fan talking about how comparing Cassian to a stormtrooper was Right and Good, Actually, and ... whew, that's a strong nope from me. (Well, more of a *backs away slowly*)

The point Cassian makes that ... sometimes gets overlooked is that he ultimately didn't obey orders, even though he had them. This is true! Jyn following up by comparing him to a stormtrooper arises as much out of her grief and anger as anything he actually did. Now, she does have perfectly legitimate reasons to be angry with him. He was lying to her and using her and only turned back at the last possible moment, and then tried to downplay what had happened. But none of this makes him comparable to a stormtrooper. The reason why I have no time for Jyn antis who use this scene to completely dismiss her is that they act like she has no reason to lash out at him. She does! But that doesn't make what she says right or fair, either.

(I did read quite a bit of Jyn/Cassian fic back in the day where Cassian ultimately accepts that she was right and he was basically indistinguishable from an agent of a murderous interstellar dictatorship until Jyn showed him the error of his ways, so despite the louder screams of Jyn antis, it remains a sensitive point. They're both right, they're both wrong, and ... /sigh.)

Comments

[elperian]

Nuanced takes? In this fandom?

My reaction in the theatre (and every time since) has been that I love them *both* in that scene, they *both* have points, they are *neither* entirely right (as is oft the case when emotions are running high). The fandom has made a good run at trying to ruin the scene for me, but they haven't yet.

[anghraine]

Nuanced takes? In this fandom?

lmao, yeah.

My reaction in the theatre (and every time since) has been that I love them *both* in that scene, they *both* have points, they are *neither* entirely right (as is oft the case when emotions are running high).

I think they're both coming from these places of emotional intensity that escalate the ways in which they're right/wrong. At the same time, it's ... hmm, I do think what Cassian says is more accurate, strictly speaking, than what Jyn says (IMO that actually feeds into her frustration and sense that he's trying to talk his way out of this). But not everything he says is accurate and he has much less justification for lashing out at her than she does at him, so there's a way in which he's decidedly wrong, too. Defenses of the stormtrooper comparison do sit very poorly with me, though.

[elperian]

I think Jyn is right about the facts on Eadu, but the stormtrooper comment is definitely where she loses people. I understand why she says it - lashing out, high emotions, Cassian seeming to follow orders, she doesn't have the same connection and background information to the Rebellion that he does - but it doesn't make it right. I did a little "yes!" when this exchange happened:

Jyn: You can't talk your way around this.
Cassian: I don't have to.

First of all, his delivery of that line is [chef's kiss]. He is wrong about other stuff, namely trying to pretend there isn't anything shady about the situation because yeah, he knows it, they all know it, he doesn't want to have to unpack it, fair enough - but it is war with the Empire, they just blew up Jedha, and even though connections with people are what we have day to day (i.e. going back to Jyn's approach), the big principled focus is what matters here.

But I can't talk about it with the fandom, because...fandom. I don't think I've seen a defense of the stormtrooper line since the early days, especially since the fandom went so virulently anti-Jyn, but I'm guessing it was that meta post that was going around the RC fandom the other day? I just am so burnt out on the fandom (especially after being a mod, and the flak some people sent my way for not running everything solo for them in the middle of a pandemic) that I'm content to just stay in the corner and see what my mutuals say.

[anghraine]

I think Jyn is right about the facts on Eadu, but the stormtrooper comment is definitely where she loses people.

Hmm, I think her response (while understandable) doesn't distinguish between what he was going out to do and what he actually did do, so I don't see her as wholly right. But she is right about some things, which certain parts of the fandom have ... historically overlooked.

(I think the fight is doubly interesting fwiw because the film doesn't clearly direct our sympathies, esp with regard to the stormtrooper thing. I also suspect this is why so many readings of it are so off the wall.)

I'm guessing it was that meta post that was going around the RC fandom the other day?

I don't know for sure—it was something that one of my RC mutuals reblogged with a noncommital "interesting!" or something, and then it went on about how Jyn is actually trying to help Cassian in the fight and her understanding is the correct one and blahblah.

I have seen the line defended since the early days, but overwhelmingly in fic that takes its rightness as a given rather than meta. And since, for a long time, I read a lot more fic than meta, the trends from those days tend to still be a factor in my pet peeves and such.

I just am so burnt out on the fandom (especially after being a mod, and the flak some people sent my way for not running everything solo for them in the middle of a pandemic)

Oh, I'm sorry about that! I can definitely see why you'd be burnt out.

[sathari]

*facepalm* Oh, Star Wars fandom. Why are you... "like this", is the only way I can put it. (Apparently this is going to be one of those weeks where a big chunk of Star Wars fandom makes me hate it.)

[anghraine]

It's been mainly a kind fandom to me personally but also can be SO BAD. I don't even know.