In the fandom, getting my cooties on it
Oct. 14th, 2011 11:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anghraineI'm delaying unpopular opinion day. Also, I'm not sure if this is character-bashing or not. But anyway: retrocest!
You all know what I'm talking about. This.
There is a lot of discomfort around this kiss. Which is understandable, though I find it odd that all the discomfort is focused on this kiss and an embrace that didn't even make the cut:
And not, say, any of the other times she kisses him (there are at least three, twice on the cheek and once on the lips), or an even more overtly romantic kiss that also got cut.
A lot of people do their best to address the discomfort over, well, our heroine kissing her twin brother—but again, not over Leia-kissing-Luke in general, just this particular kiss. It's a little odd, because this is probably the least shippy of their kisses; it has more to do with thumbing their respective noses at Han Solo than anything else. The others, whatever the reasons for them, are at least about each other.
At a guess, I'd say it's probably because Han's presence ups the sexual ante, in a way. This kiss is longer and more sexual—it has to be, since that's the point of it in the first place.
Anyway, this is about the argument that is almost invariably made to . . . refute the discomfort, I guess. To whit:
But it wasn't even about Luke! She was just trying to make Han jealous!
It wasn't about Luke, you're right. But it also had nothing to do with making Han jealous, and I am actually pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion that it did.
No, not because Splinter brought me around to regarding Luke/Leia as endearingly amusing rather than omg no, and not because of my affection for the Han/Leia/Luke OT3 (it's alllotesse 's fault! And silversandals'!). In fact, not for any shipping reasons at all.
It's not really because of the kiss itself either. It's the context. The vaguely skeevy context.
To recap, Han has decided he has to go repay his … bill to Jabba the Hutt, and is leaving the Alliance to do it. (I'm guessing he can't just make a quick trip and come back?) He announces this to General Rieekan—I think; the Rebel generals and admirals are all a bit interchangeable to me, except Ackbar, of course—who is perfectly understanding. Leia is evidently unhappy, though still self-controlled.
Han swaggers over to her and, ignoring their audience, offers a reasonably pleasant good-bye. Leia brusquely acknowledges his departure, Han snarls a clearly injured goodbye, and stalks off. Leia, upset, runs after and is basically all “wtf” at him.
Han explains that he's changed his mind because something to do with a bounty hunter, and Leia all but asks him to stay—with theroyal Alliance “we.” Han not-very-subtly hints that she needs him, personally, and Leia is completely confused. He finally lays out that she wants him to stay because of her feelings for him, and Leia agrees—that she feels he's a capable and charismatic leader, which Han scoffs at. Leia finally gets it and immediately rejects him. Han demands to know why she followed him if she isn't in love with him, and suggests she doesn't really mean it and actually wants him to kiss her. Leia rejects him again, and Han tells her she needs to get, um, kissed.
After Luke's rescue, Han comes to visit him in the hospital and Leia joins them shortly thereafter. Han immediately suggests (again) that Leia is trufax interested in him and engineered his delay. Leia (again) rejects this, and explains that the decision was made by other people. Han, light-heartedly, refuses to accept her denial and Chewie laughs at him. Han, piqued, insinuates—ostensibly to Chewie but it's clearly meant, in different ways, for Luke and Leia—that they had some kind of romantic interlude and Leia declared her love to him.
Leia, who has unequivocally rejected him three times by this point, is livid. She sputters in rage and Han smugly decides this means (you guessed it) that she must be interested in him. Leia is even more furious and informs him that he clearly has no clue about women if he thinks that, and snogs Luke. She sails out and Luke smirks.
Yes, Han is correct that Leia is attracted to him and reluctant to admit it to herself, or act on it. What he doesn't seem to get is that it's Leia's choice. It isn't his job to tell her, oh no, she's wrong about her own feelings, he understands them so much better. And it isn't his job, or anyone's, to ignore her repeated refusals. That's completely inappropriate—and, though normally this sentence would never pass my lips (or fingers), compares unfavourably to the prequels, where Anakin's vaguely creepy pursuit of Padmé and her total obliviousness and repeated rejections echo Han and Leia, but when Padmé (who is by this point evidently interested in him) tells him to back the hell off, he does.
So. Han's romance-novel-hero refusal to accept no for an answer is completely inappropriate, and then it's compounded by the fact that Leia finds it completely inappropriate. It's infuriating and she's infuriated; the skeeviness of his behaviour is being semi-acknowledged by the text (not wholly, because I think the ultimate, intended implication is that he was right about her feelings and right to force her to acknowledge them and right to pursue her until she did so). And then she calls him on his refusal to accept hers: in fact, she doesn't just say that understanding “no” as “yes” is misunderstanding her, but that it's misunderstanding women.
Relevant tumblr is relevant.
And that is when she kisses Luke—as yet another attempt to convince Han to back off. “I don't get it” didn't work. “Are you high?” didn't work. “I'm not interested” didn't work. And now she's trying “I'm interested in someone else, see, we're making out, so there.”
That, for the record, doesn't work either. Still: making him jealous is about the last thing on her mind. And I suspect this, aside of the basic awesomesauce of her I'll-kiss-whoever-the-hell-I-want-and-regret-nothing approach to romance, is why she betrays not the slightest self-consciousness about it in ROTJ.
I actually do ship Han/Leia. But I wouldn't if not for the carbon-freezing chamber and ROTJ.
You all know what I'm talking about. This.
There is a lot of discomfort around this kiss. Which is understandable, though I find it odd that all the discomfort is focused on this kiss and an embrace that didn't even make the cut:
And not, say, any of the other times she kisses him (there are at least three, twice on the cheek and once on the lips), or an even more overtly romantic kiss that also got cut.
A lot of people do their best to address the discomfort over, well, our heroine kissing her twin brother—but again, not over Leia-kissing-Luke in general, just this particular kiss. It's a little odd, because this is probably the least shippy of their kisses; it has more to do with thumbing their respective noses at Han Solo than anything else. The others, whatever the reasons for them, are at least about each other.
At a guess, I'd say it's probably because Han's presence ups the sexual ante, in a way. This kiss is longer and more sexual—it has to be, since that's the point of it in the first place.
Anyway, this is about the argument that is almost invariably made to . . . refute the discomfort, I guess. To whit:
But it wasn't even about Luke! She was just trying to make Han jealous!
It wasn't about Luke, you're right. But it also had nothing to do with making Han jealous, and I am actually pretty uncomfortable with the suggestion that it did.
No, not because Splinter brought me around to regarding Luke/Leia as endearingly amusing rather than omg no, and not because of my affection for the Han/Leia/Luke OT3 (it's all
lotesse 's fault! And silversandals'!). In fact, not for any shipping reasons at all.It's not really because of the kiss itself either. It's the context. The vaguely skeevy context.
To recap, Han has decided he has to go repay his … bill to Jabba the Hutt, and is leaving the Alliance to do it. (I'm guessing he can't just make a quick trip and come back?) He announces this to General Rieekan—I think; the Rebel generals and admirals are all a bit interchangeable to me, except Ackbar, of course—who is perfectly understanding. Leia is evidently unhappy, though still self-controlled.
Han swaggers over to her and, ignoring their audience, offers a reasonably pleasant good-bye. Leia brusquely acknowledges his departure, Han snarls a clearly injured goodbye, and stalks off. Leia, upset, runs after and is basically all “wtf” at him.
Han explains that he's changed his mind because something to do with a bounty hunter, and Leia all but asks him to stay—with the
After Luke's rescue, Han comes to visit him in the hospital and Leia joins them shortly thereafter. Han immediately suggests (again) that Leia is trufax interested in him and engineered his delay. Leia (again) rejects this, and explains that the decision was made by other people. Han, light-heartedly, refuses to accept her denial and Chewie laughs at him. Han, piqued, insinuates—ostensibly to Chewie but it's clearly meant, in different ways, for Luke and Leia—that they had some kind of romantic interlude and Leia declared her love to him.
Leia, who has unequivocally rejected him three times by this point, is livid. She sputters in rage and Han smugly decides this means (you guessed it) that she must be interested in him. Leia is even more furious and informs him that he clearly has no clue about women if he thinks that, and snogs Luke. She sails out and Luke smirks.
Yes, Han is correct that Leia is attracted to him and reluctant to admit it to herself, or act on it. What he doesn't seem to get is that it's Leia's choice. It isn't his job to tell her, oh no, she's wrong about her own feelings, he understands them so much better. And it isn't his job, or anyone's, to ignore her repeated refusals. That's completely inappropriate—and, though normally this sentence would never pass my lips (or fingers), compares unfavourably to the prequels, where Anakin's vaguely creepy pursuit of Padmé and her total obliviousness and repeated rejections echo Han and Leia, but when Padmé (who is by this point evidently interested in him) tells him to back the hell off, he does.
So. Han's romance-novel-hero refusal to accept no for an answer is completely inappropriate, and then it's compounded by the fact that Leia finds it completely inappropriate. It's infuriating and she's infuriated; the skeeviness of his behaviour is being semi-acknowledged by the text (not wholly, because I think the ultimate, intended implication is that he was right about her feelings and right to force her to acknowledge them and right to pursue her until she did so). And then she calls him on his refusal to accept hers: in fact, she doesn't just say that understanding “no” as “yes” is misunderstanding her, but that it's misunderstanding women.
Relevant tumblr is relevant.
And that is when she kisses Luke—as yet another attempt to convince Han to back off. “I don't get it” didn't work. “Are you high?” didn't work. “I'm not interested” didn't work. And now she's trying “I'm interested in someone else, see, we're making out, so there.”
That, for the record, doesn't work either. Still: making him jealous is about the last thing on her mind. And I suspect this, aside of the basic awesomesauce of her I'll-kiss-whoever-the-hell-I-want-and-regret-nothing approach to romance, is why she betrays not the slightest self-consciousness about it in ROTJ.
no subject
on 2011-10-16 09:24 pm (UTC)