[Tumblr response] Strength of Men
Jul. 27th, 2016 08:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anghraineTumblr user erunyauve made this post, which argued that Tolkien's insistence that Elves are "immensely strong" isn't supported by the suggestion in LOTR that Aragorn and Boromir are the muscle of the Fellowship, or a line in the Silmarillion about the distinction between Sindar and Noldor.
I responded:
Hm, I read the evidence rather differently.
1. If I understand correctly, you read the “but” in the line—
In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe
—as a qualification of the Sindar-Noldor resemblance: they’re alike except with regard to Sindarin litheness. However, that but could just as easily be a qualification of “strong and tall”—both groups are strong and tall, yet in a lithe way. (Honestly, it never occurred to me to read it any other way than that, and I had to re-read a few times before I realized it could be parsed differently.)
It’s not certain, but I don’t think it can be conclusively taken one way or the other.
2. I don’t think “the Men” by comparison to Legolas refers to Men as a group, but specifically to the Men of the Fellowship, i.e. Aragorn and Boromir. And they’re not ordinary Men. Tolkien explicitly linked their size with their heritage as Dúnedain:
the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall […blah blah dwindling blah blah…] Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man …, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter.
He only specifies their 6'6"+ heights here, but he does speak of Númenórean stature and strength. Even dwindled, Aragorn, Denethor, and Faramir (and physically Boromir) are explicitly throwbacks to their Bëorian Númenórean ancestors, who could be confused for Eldar (implicitly Noldor). And these particular ones are treated in the text as extraordinary. Prematurely-aged eighty-seven-year-old Denethor wears chainmail 24/7, including when he goes to sleep. Aragorn’s speed and endurance stun other Men, and he considers himself of the same people as Elrond, as does Legolas. Théoden thinks thirty Dúnedain an incalculably valuable addition to his army, and when Aragorn shrugs off his wear and tear he can pass for a Noldo. Boromir’s extraordinary strength is emphasized over and over, and he’s explicitly stronger than Faramir—a man of remarkable endurance who can out-match any warrior in Rohan.
The general conception of Dúnedain is basically “Men+”, but IMO they—at least the ‘high Númenórean’ type—are written less as “exceptional for Men” than exceptional, period. Legolas, OTOH, basically exists for the sole purpose of being Representative Elf™. I think it’s very possible that he could be very strong by any normal measure, while still being soundly outclassed by the likes of Aragorn and Boromir.
(Legolas is pretty much in awe of Aragorn's child-of-Lúthien specialness, and Boromir is at least on a par with Aragorn physically. The line about Númenóreans being near indistinguishable from Elves physically also says in powers of mind, and I've always backwards-formationed that if the Silm Elves have anything like Faramir's telepathic abilities, then there's a lot I can accept. But ... a good portion of the Silm makes vastly more sense if most of them can't sniff out betrayal cooties like he does. Which is tangential, but the more I think about it, the more the extraordinary Men seem extraordinary without qualification, rather than almost as supercoolawesome as ordinary Elves. That might be how Elves tend to talk about them, but y'know. Elves.)
I responded:
Hm, I read the evidence rather differently.
1. If I understand correctly, you read the “but” in the line—
In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe
—as a qualification of the Sindar-Noldor resemblance: they’re alike except with regard to Sindarin litheness. However, that but could just as easily be a qualification of “strong and tall”—both groups are strong and tall, yet in a lithe way. (Honestly, it never occurred to me to read it any other way than that, and I had to re-read a few times before I realized it could be parsed differently.)
It’s not certain, but I don’t think it can be conclusively taken one way or the other.
2. I don’t think “the Men” by comparison to Legolas refers to Men as a group, but specifically to the Men of the Fellowship, i.e. Aragorn and Boromir. And they’re not ordinary Men. Tolkien explicitly linked their size with their heritage as Dúnedain:
the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall […blah blah dwindling blah blah…] Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man …, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter.
He only specifies their 6'6"+ heights here, but he does speak of Númenórean stature and strength. Even dwindled, Aragorn, Denethor, and Faramir (and physically Boromir) are explicitly throwbacks to their Bëorian Númenórean ancestors, who could be confused for Eldar (implicitly Noldor). And these particular ones are treated in the text as extraordinary. Prematurely-aged eighty-seven-year-old Denethor wears chainmail 24/7, including when he goes to sleep. Aragorn’s speed and endurance stun other Men, and he considers himself of the same people as Elrond, as does Legolas. Théoden thinks thirty Dúnedain an incalculably valuable addition to his army, and when Aragorn shrugs off his wear and tear he can pass for a Noldo. Boromir’s extraordinary strength is emphasized over and over, and he’s explicitly stronger than Faramir—a man of remarkable endurance who can out-match any warrior in Rohan.
The general conception of Dúnedain is basically “Men+”, but IMO they—at least the ‘high Númenórean’ type—are written less as “exceptional for Men” than exceptional, period. Legolas, OTOH, basically exists for the sole purpose of being Representative Elf™. I think it’s very possible that he could be very strong by any normal measure, while still being soundly outclassed by the likes of Aragorn and Boromir.
(Legolas is pretty much in awe of Aragorn's child-of-Lúthien specialness, and Boromir is at least on a par with Aragorn physically. The line about Númenóreans being near indistinguishable from Elves physically also says in powers of mind, and I've always backwards-formationed that if the Silm Elves have anything like Faramir's telepathic abilities, then there's a lot I can accept. But ... a good portion of the Silm makes vastly more sense if most of them can't sniff out betrayal cooties like he does. Which is tangential, but the more I think about it, the more the extraordinary Men seem extraordinary without qualification, rather than almost as supercoolawesome as ordinary Elves. That might be how Elves tend to talk about them, but y'know. Elves.)
no subject
on 2016-07-29 10:07 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2016-07-31 03:05 am (UTC)Gandalf on Denethor:
"He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."
Faramir with Gollum:
'It is called Cirith Ungol.’ Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?’ said Faramir turning to him.
'No!’ said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him.
~
‘Look at me! Do you know the name of this place? Have you been here before?’
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir’s. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. ‘We doesn’t know and we doesn’t want to know,’ he whimpered. ‘Never came here; never come again.’
‘There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,’ said Faramir. ‘But in this I judge that you speak the truth.’
~
'But I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceived clearly in his mind. Do not go to Cirith Ungol!’
(If anything, the reference to the darkness of Gollum's mind suggests that normally he'd actually be able to see more.)