I did it. Somehow.
Sep. 10th, 2011 01:56 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anghraineI got Revenge in, after every possible thing that could go wrong going wrong. My computer lost Internet access. My computer had to be restaged. My borrowed computer lost the entire post and I had to write it all over again.
But it's in. 58,000 words -- I don't even know. And Lucy was 28,000, I think, so together I basically wrote a YA novel. NOTE TO THE FUTURE: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. EVER.
Even though I'm almost sure that the later chapters are a bit weak - because, you know, time and stupid damn computer - it's done. It's done, it's done. I am so glad. And I'm kind of satisfied with myself that even though this is not the entire storyline, that I did manage to do everything I wanted to. I took that vague plot and strung out this weird (okay, kind of plotless) story and got everything I wanted in it. Is it better than Return of the Jedi? lol no. But has a bunch of individual things that are more satisfying for me personally. I know I shortchanged the Jabba section especially, but that's... kind of my way of reversing it? I was always irritated that it goes ON AND ON AND ON, so my version is like, idk, three paragraphs and then the barge scene and oh look he's dead. Which isn't necessarily good, but personally satisfying.
In fact, of all the stories I've written, this may be the most purely self-indulgent. This story is basically what I wanted it to be, and I just ignored everything I know about how there should be a Plot where Things Happen that are Not Flashbacks and Possibly Also Not Monk Training. Also, the PT AU embedded within it is totally my favourite part. And possibly I should have just written that.And maybe I will someday. And yeah, it doesn't wrap up the story as such -- Vader's arc, in particular, is just starting, and Shmi's is left dangling, but it wraps up enough that I'm happy with it. Unlike Lucy -- I mean, I'm happy with Lucy (probably happier than I am with Revenge even, because of that whole Plot thing), but it's practically got TO BE CONTINUED plastered at the bottom of it. This could...probably be its own thing, even though obviously there is more story.
Also, seriously guys -- all of you who encouraged me through these monstrosities. Thank you. Sometimes seeing someone go "ooh that sounds amazing!" or "no, E, I'm really looking forward to it..." is what got me from staring at a blank "Ch 14" or whatever and filling it with, you know, words. It's been fun to talk about and to hint about and to know people actually cared about. So thanks!
Second also, my artist was amazing. I was perpetually behind, aside of all my computer problems, I wrote the chapters out of order so I could only send them to her very slowly, the fanmix ended up being wonderfully appropriate and sparkly and everything. So just so you know.
Now I don't want to write any serious fiction for like A YEAR by which I probably mean a week and a half. I'm like 'whoa, do I even want to do it next year? lol whatevs.' But now that I've shown I can write over eighty thousand words (lol), I think I could actually do it properly for once. But never two at once. NEVER.
But it's in. 58,000 words -- I don't even know. And Lucy was 28,000, I think, so together I basically wrote a YA novel. NOTE TO THE FUTURE: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. EVER.
Even though I'm almost sure that the later chapters are a bit weak - because, you know, time and stupid damn computer - it's done. It's done, it's done. I am so glad. And I'm kind of satisfied with myself that even though this is not the entire storyline, that I did manage to do everything I wanted to. I took that vague plot and strung out this weird (okay, kind of plotless) story and got everything I wanted in it. Is it better than Return of the Jedi? lol no. But has a bunch of individual things that are more satisfying for me personally. I know I shortchanged the Jabba section especially, but that's... kind of my way of reversing it? I was always irritated that it goes ON AND ON AND ON, so my version is like, idk, three paragraphs and then the barge scene and oh look he's dead. Which isn't necessarily good, but personally satisfying.
In fact, of all the stories I've written, this may be the most purely self-indulgent. This story is basically what I wanted it to be, and I just ignored everything I know about how there should be a Plot where Things Happen that are Not Flashbacks and Possibly Also Not Monk Training. Also, the PT AU embedded within it is totally my favourite part. And possibly I should have just written that.
Also, seriously guys -- all of you who encouraged me through these monstrosities. Thank you. Sometimes seeing someone go "ooh that sounds amazing!" or "no, E, I'm really looking forward to it..." is what got me from staring at a blank "Ch 14" or whatever and filling it with, you know, words. It's been fun to talk about and to hint about and to know people actually cared about. So thanks!
Second also, my artist was amazing. I was perpetually behind, aside of all my computer problems, I wrote the chapters out of order so I could only send them to her very slowly, the fanmix ended up being wonderfully appropriate and sparkly and everything. So just so you know.
Now I don't want to write any serious fiction for like A YEAR by which I probably mean a week and a half. I'm like 'whoa, do I even want to do it next year? lol whatevs.' But now that I've shown I can write over eighty thousand words (lol), I think I could actually do it properly for once. But never two at once. NEVER.
no subject
on 2011-09-11 02:00 am (UTC)no subject
on 2011-09-11 03:13 am (UTC)I could not love this fic more if I tried. Really, I couldn't.
on 2011-09-12 01:56 am (UTC)I love your Shmi--- dear Force, you made me love Shmi, this is amazing! You made her awesome and epic and winful! And your Leia! Who shoots Force lightning!!!! That could not be more awesome if it tried! And the fact that Luke is totally chill about her possibly turning to the Dark Side! Actually, everything ever about your Luke! And your Vader who is and isn't Anakin and is and is awesome! And Anakin who is... "Papa's going to make everything right for you" or words to that effect and that's why he turned and oh how perfect! (And he has an apparent aversion to furniture, why do I love that so much? But I do!) And Anissa is... I want more of her!!!! Yes, please! And I can't wait to meet Luke's twin sister! And you made me like Yoda, after the PT! I have no words for what an accomplishment that is! "Important nap", indeed! (And you also made me like Luke and Leia not being twins! Because... okay, I'm an
And I love Leia's line about how we have enough enemies without making a friend into one, and Vader's thought about not mentioning what he'd been doing with a lightsaber at thirty and Luke's thought about how his father is Obi-wan's star pupil and how kriffed-up the Jedi were (mercenaries selling their swords and so forth) and I cannot squee enough about this fic, I really can't!
Also, I know you were worried about your dialogue being too stilted, but really, no, not at all! The only people who were ever highly formal were people who would be and you made them pitch-perfect and the ones who wouldn't be were pitch-perfect as well! And this is gorgeously character-driven and there is plenty of Stuff Happening, stories don't always need a Conventional Plot, and this one definitely didn't, because it had deeply engaging people growing and changing in their relationships with each other and themselves and the world/the Force and that is better than plot for making a story hold my attention at least. Plot can sometimes be detrimental to letting characters grow and it is good that this isn't slaving the characters to a Conventional Plot. (And there is plenty of plottiness, too, because we have the Sun Crusher and the overthrow of the Emperor and New Alderaan and so forth, but we also spend enough time on these people to care if they achieve their plotty goals, which matters!)
And Leia. With Force lightning. I know I mentioned that but it is so amazing and wonderful that I have to bring it up again. (I have heretical opinions about the Dark and Light sides of the Force. Which fact I admit freely.)
Anyway, in summary, this is kriffing amazing and I love it epically and yeah.
Re: I could not love this fic more if I tried. Really, I couldn't.
on 2011-09-12 06:35 am (UTC)You made her awesome and epic and winful!
Heeeh. I was worried that she was too OOC, and then it was "...lol, this is a reimagining ANYWAY I can do whatever I want!" So that was the idea.
And your Leia! Who shoots Force lightning!!!! That could not be more awesome if it tried!
:D :D :D :D That may have been the very first scene I wrote in the whole story. Because I did want her to fail (I get kind of annoyed with the "Leia is better than Luke in ALL WAYS and perfectly perfect" that you see sometimes), in a creepy Dark Sidey way that wasn't Luke's more...militaristic failure, I guess, but specific to her, and still kind of awesome. So, Force-lightning!
And Anakin who is... "Papa's going to make everything right for you" or words to that effect and that's why he turned and oh how perfect!
Pretty much, yes. I mean, there were a lot of reasons, but Padmé getting murdered proved that the galaxy wasn't safe for anyone, let alone his little boy, and it was the last straw. :( But I was surprised in ROTS that saving their child seemed little more than an afterthought to Anakin, considering how obsessively fixated he was on Luke's mere existence later. This was maybe overkill, but it worked better for me.
And the furniture. I don't even know where that came from.And Anissa is... I want more of her!!!! Yes, please!
Ooh, cool. The realization that it was going to be Anakin/OFC and then that it was going to have actual Anakin/OFC scenes was kind of NOOOOO. But I rather like Arissa, so I hope other people do too.
I have no words for what an accomplishment that is!
I totally get this. The PT made me retroactively hate even OT Yoda, so rehabilitating him in my own eyes was a definite motivation here. Where he's still made mistakes -- even some of the same mistakes, and some that he didn't -- but... still basically admirable?
Because... okay, I'm an irnan fangirl, but also and more generally I'm just a fan of Leia as Vader's kid.
OMG, I love irnan's fics. And meta. And everything. And I ... I mean, in terms of what we're given, the Luke-Anakin relationship is much more compelling for me. Because Leia seems just an afterthought. But the hints we do get, mostly in ANH, where it's like there's this antagonistic respect, it is interesting, so I wanted to keep that even though I didn't make them family here. But there is a vaguely familial-type thing with Padmé the loyal Imperial as Anakin's best friend and Vader keeping quiet about Leia for her sake.
Luke's thought about how his father is Obi-wan's star pupil and how kriffed-up the Jedi were (mercenaries selling their swords and so forth)
ooh, thank you. I've wondered how much of Vader's epic rationalizing he picked up at Obi-Wan's knee, so it was fun to play with that here. And yeah, the Jedi were totally messed-up -- these ones were less about the child abuse, I think, and more about the mercenary...ing, but still, wtf, guys. And we've known Obi-Wan was "General Kenobi" since 1977, so-- yeah.
And thanks about the dialogue, too! I wangsted for hours over it, so I'm so glad it sounded right. Threepio was easy enough, but Yoda and Vader were like GAH OMG.
I have heretical opinions about the Dark and Light sides of the Force.
I get the feeling mine are too. Namely, there's no such thing as the Light Side, per se -- just the Force and this cancerous imbalance on it. And I don't think there's any such thing as "Dark Side powers" or whatever either, which is why Luke can Force-choke people like he does in canon, and Leia can shoot lightning all she wants, and they're still not Dark Siders. (Just a little ambiguous, ha.)
I see it more as a matter of where they get the power, and in what emotional state, than what specific technique they're using. Plenty of non-dark Jedi do some very morally questionable shit and it doesn't necessarily bring them closer to the Dark Side unless they're all ragey and uncontrolled when they do it.
Anyway, in summary, this is kriffing amazing and I love it epically and yeah.
Awww, thanks so much. This was awesome! And I've probably said it like a dozen of times, but I'm so glad you liked it. <3
Re: I could not love this fic more if I tried. Really, I couldn't.
on 2011-09-12 11:56 pm (UTC)She is perfect. Like, totally what she should have been in canon!!!!! Just... awesome. Like, every time she was all, "Oh, Anakin. *facepalm*" I squeed like a squeeing thing. It's too perfect.
Leia and her Force-lightning, oh yes. I like that fail for her. (Actually I like twin!fic that plays up that she is Very Much Her Father's Daughter, so even though she isn't that here--- I feel rather strongly that Bail Would Not Approve, in fact!--- it just fits her. And it fits her that she's not, as you say, more overtly militaristic. (On which note, thank you from the bottom of my little fangirl's heart for taking Palpatine's lightsaber away from him, please and thank you! Because while I am all about the Older Dudes Kicking Tail in Star Wars--- Qui-gon! Dooku! Yay!--- Palpatine is sooooo much more of a badass when he does not have a lightsaber.)
Yeah, I actually got that there was more to it than that, but OMG that line! Just... wonderful and painful and so very Anakin.
Yeah, it really is interesting how he changes in his attitude--- my sense of him in ROTS was that he was at best ambivalent about this whole "parenthood" thing. (Not that I blame him under the circumstances: unplanned pregnancy, secret marriage, middle of a war... am I missing anything? Um, even if I am that's kind of a lot!) By ANH/ESB... honestly, I wonder if it wasn't just epic loneliness, just wanting some kind of (wait for it!) attachment. Because, Anakin. He needs connections to people like he needs air. And he's been locked in that suit for twenty years and the closest thing he seems to have to an interpersonal relationship is with Palpatine. Which, ouch.
I will never not be in love with the furniture line, because it is so very Anakin--- "Always on the move". And, yeah, an Anakin who is actually all about his kid/s from jump is a more pleasant mental space for me as a reader (not least because I am squicked on many, many levels by people being parents when they are not actually excited about the prospect.)
And Arissa is awesome! I love her kidding Anakin in the scene where they meet Padme! (And, um, fandom's hatred of OFCs can just bite me already. Bring 'em on, especially the awesome ones like Arissa!)
I totally, totally get the death-by-PT of Yoda!love. I admit I always was kind of creeped out by him in the training montage in ESB, but it didn't reach Epic Loathing until he, um, pretty much shoved Anakin right into the Dark Side in ROTS. "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose", hmph! (And other less printable words.) So yours is just really refreshing in that he's likeable again. ("Important nap" FTW! I adore that line; it's so... personizing, if that makes sense, because one can't say "humanizing" about an alien.)
Fellow
Oh, yeah, that was awesome--- one of those lines that had me cheering out loud. Vader is as much Obi-wan's creation as Palpatine's, really.
Yes, I really liked what you did with "General Kenobi"!
And also, it's totally my headcanon that the canon!Jedi of the PT had a lot of the same problems as the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages/Renaissance, you know? Technically a spiritual/religious order, but getting their fingers into waaaaaay too many temporal pies. And that that was one of the reasons for taking kids so young--- they needed to be able to indoctrinate them early in order to have enough Jedi running around for them to maintain their political power as the Republic's peacekeepers. So I like the mercenary take on the Jedi's failiness! (Also, this is me needing an icon of Mace Windu and Yoda with the caption "Princes of the Church", because, yeah.)
Oh, Yoda and Vader were awesome! They sounded just like they should! And Leia and Obi-wan, too! (I can't comment on Luke because I don't have a clear Luke-voice in my head, but he didn't sound wrong to me, either!) But then, these are definitely people who benefit from being written with an Austenian sensibility; they are very formal in their speech patterns, and anything else is just wrong.
Oooh, I like your heresy! My own... I vacillate on whether there is actually a Dark and a Light side, as opposed to the flawed and finite attempts of flawed and finite sentient beings to grasp, as Palpatine puts it, "the great mystery"--- the infinite, and when I do rock the dichotomy, I'm all about the idea of the "balance in the Force" as the finding of a synthesis between the two, admitting that there's a proverbial time to kill and a time to heal, so to speak, and choosing between them as needed. (I also tend to think that the most powerful healing energies are a mix of Dark and Light--- there's compassion and caring, but there is also rage and a refusal to passively accept the loss and pain and suffering in the universe. Um, or maybe I've just watched too much M*A*S*H, because if ever there was someone who would be at best a Grey Jedi, it's Hawkeye Pierce.)
I'm so glad you're enjoying my enjoyment! :D :D :D And it is ridiculously awesome to talk Star Wars with a fellow fan, especially one who is such a fantastic writer!
Re: I could not love this fic more if I tried. Really, I couldn't.
on 2011-09-15 02:40 am (UTC)I definitely like fic that plays up the Leia-Vader connection as father and daughter, because we got so little in canon, and yet there's all this stuff THERE. And despite all the effort to make Padmé "the Leia" of the PT (until ROTS, obvs), Leia has a lot more in common with Anakin, and I tried to keep some of that here. (Though I'll admit the Leia-is-like-Anakin thing annoys me when it's followed up with "and Luke is the one like Padmé," since IMO the twins resemble each other very strongly and both favour their father.)
Re: Palpatine's lightsaber -- heeeh, you're welcome. I just can't see him or Yoda with one, honestly. It's not ... that's not what they're about, you know? And besides, I think Palpatine is more terrifying without any kind of evil accessories, anyway.
Re: fatherhood -- yeah, within the context of ROTS, it makes sense. (Even I will admit that!) But in terms of the story arc, it's really unsatisfying for me. It is endlessly depressing that he's been living without attachment for all those years, though. *sadface*
Re: furniture -- you're right, he is always in motion. (Like the future, ha.) I hadn't thought of that explanation, but it fits.
Re: PT!Yoda -- OMG, yes. Telling him not to mourn the loss of people he loves??? WHAT. In fact, even though I was trying to amend that in some ways with this Yoda, who isn't complicit in a lot of the crap that canon!Yoda pulled (FIVE-YEAR-OLDS DO NOT LIGHTSABERS OMG), that's enough of a Thing for me that I actually kept it. And had Yoda be extremely remorseful about it.
Re: irnan -- oh, the hex series is probably my absolute favourite. Just !!!!!!! I really do like S&A, though, despite my hatred of the EU (or because of it!), and I love the wiresverse and especially the rosesverse. Roll the Dice is pretty kickass too (and I got a drabble for it the other day! *win*)
Ha, Leia totally would have been like his niece/goddaughter if everything hadn't gone awful -- I mean, even baby Luke is calling her mother "Aunt Padmé" and he's younger than Leia. She probably did call him "Uncle Anakin" back then (and Bail probably gave him the occasional stink eye, lol). ;_;
Re: Vader as Obi-Wan's creation -- yes! Even in canon. Especially in canon! Something. I have to admit, the moment in ROTJ when Obi-Wan finally takes some responsibility and admits it was his fault is even more satisfying now. (Seriously, Anakin seems better off as a slave than he is under Obi-Wan's care. Worst. Mentor. Ever. And the manipulation of Luke is pretty messed-up too.)
So even though, of course, there's a very different backstory here, I did want to keep the basic Obi-Wan-Anakin dynamic. Obi-Wan's defining role, in many ways, is to be a failure, the teacher who failed. (I think it would have been super-interesting if he'd been the central character of the PT, not Palpatine or Anakin, since by his nature he HAS to be a tragic hero, so it'd still have been a tragedy and ... yeah.)
And also, it's totally my headcanon that the canon!Jedi of the PT had a lot of the same problems as the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages/Renaissance, you know? Technically a spiritual/religious order, but getting their fingers into waaaaaay too many temporal pies.
YES. THIS. I mean, they even say that they're not soldiers and it's like NO. NO, YOU'RE NOT. And I've thought that, in many respects, it's -- it's treated sometimes that, as religion goes, the Jedi are the worshippers and there isn't really a clergy as such. But I think it's the other way around; most of the galaxy are the worshippers and the Jedi are the clergy. (And if "Jedi Knights" wasn't meant to evoke Catholic militant orders ... yeah no.)
Re: the Force -- oh! I totally think there is a Dark Side, because, well, it has such a ... ah, distinctive effect. I mean, the moment people turn to the Dark Side, they go nuts and can only turn back with a massive struggle. I think that's why turning to the Dark Side is itself such a monumental thing -- in many ways, Anakin's turn to the Dark Side is represented as a greater crime than anything he does under its power, I think because he chose it while (apparently) in his right mind, while a true Dark-sider's ability to think, judge, and make decisions is severely compromised.
I wrote another big long essay about this too -- I think about a year ago? Basically, I don't think it's functionally that different from the One Ring or the various eldritch Sources of Evil that pop up in myth and fantasy all the time. I don't really see the Force (Light Side, I guess) as about growth where the Dark Side is destruction, but that the time-to-heal and time-to-kill are both part of the Force (Living/Unifying, maybe?) and would be properly balanced, if not for the Dark Side itself warping everything. And the Dark Side is generated by the general stagnation and messed-up-ness going on.
(My crack theory is that Anakin isn't so much a creation of the Force as an incarnation of the Force, or an avatar, and the nature of the Force as a whole is decided by his choices as a mortal. And that the proper halves of the Force, Living and Unifying, are personified in Luke and Leia, and between the three of them they get everything back in sync.)
Re: I could not love this fic more if I tried. Really, I couldn't.
on 2011-09-16 01:08 am (UTC)Agreed all over the place about the twins and their similarity to Dear Old Dad. (I wonder if it's a midichlorian or at least Force-sensitive thing?)
Oh, yes, I will never not be happy about getting rid of Palpatine's lightsaber. (I can handle Yoda with one; Palps, on the other hand, is just no for me; this is the guy who's scary because he can mess your mind up completely with a few well-chosen words, and if the words don't work, Force lightning.)
Echoing the *sadface* about Anakin-Vader's isolation, and I am also in agreement about his attitude toward fatherhood in the ROTS microarc versus the larger trilogy. (I... there's a part of me that wants Padme to be the one who's ambivalent and it's Anakin's wholehearted squee when she tells him that makes her keep the pregnancy? [Yes, I went there.] And that would fit better with the whole Padme-dies-in-childbirth thing, if she hadn't wanted the kids anyway and had lost her husband and seen the political sphere she loved go haywire.)
Oooh, I'm glad that the furniture explanation works, because I loved that so, so, so much! It's making me grin even now!
Re: Yoda: Yes, just yes. (I also have headcanon about how the interaction of Anakin's own childhood badassery--- see: won podraces and blew up space stations at the age of nine--- and the fact that he probably knew that the baby!Jedi knew how to fight makes his killing of younglings... not excusable, but very different from someone in our world walking into a kindergarten class and opening fire with an Uzi, you know? He was incredibly badass at about their age, and he knows that they've had training. And Lucas did not give us a shot of Anakin standing over cradles; the kids we see him attack were old enough to have been trained. That's... telling, at least to me. I also like to think that Palpatine made a propaganda coup out of sending the infants taken by the Jedi, the ones too young to be trained, back to their families [but he kept the list of names!]. And also that he made much about the horrors of the Jedi training child soldiers, and that maybe that was the first time that Darth Vader really started to understand just why Padme was so upset about him killing younglings that night on Mustafar--- because he was a slave who became a Jedi, the whole idea of children as inherently innocent, helpless and protected is not a part of his worldview.)
Oh, the hex series!!!! I love the fourth one so much in particular, because Empress Amidala with Vader as her badass enforcer/adoring husband is one of my favorite things ever at all. And S&A is IMO what the post-OT EU needed to be. I need to reread Roll the Dice now--- and OMG where is the drabble? Is it somewhere I can see it? *bounces* And the roses!verse is... I don't like doctor!Padme for some reason but I love the Jedi schism! And the wires!verse is just So. Much. Love.
Re: Leia: Oh, dear Force. "Uncle Anakin!" And so much yes to the stinkeye from Bail. (I... do not share the general fandom Bail-love, because he reads to me like the sort of always-a-civilian politician who is all asquee about getting to work with the military in some capacity without really having a clue about how they actually work?)
Re: Obi-wan: Yes, again, so much yes! Obi-wan... I mean, he's a first-time teacher, dealing with a particularly unusual student, I have pity for him! And he probably had no clue how to cope with the whole complex of emotions he'd have had about Anakin. But that doesn't make his fail any less faily! I mean, really, dismembering your former student. And frankly it's almost more disturbing to me that the only time in three movies we see him praising Anakin is after Anakin has basically groveled at him, because I can see the dismemberment in the heat of the moment, but not giving the poor kid some positive feedback? Ow. (Also, I don't know why there are not approximately 8347594857584 fanvids of Obi-wan and Anakin's relationship set to Vertical Horizon's "Back To You" but somehow there aren't.) And, yes, Obi-wan as the central character would have been fascinating!
Re: Jedi as Catholic militant order/clergy: Word to all of this. It's just... such a gloriously twisty parallel, there. And they are totally the clergy.
Re: the Force: I totally like your version! My headcanon... well, I thank you for pushing me to unpack it, because it's less that there aren't to sides to the Force, but that the dichotomy is "passionate attachment/compassionate detachment" and there is a time and a place for both and that Balancing the Force means getting to where Force users are learning to pick? And the sickness in the Force is that people are adhering rigidly to one or the other and rejecting the opposing paradigm. (Thesis-antithesis-synthesis! Whee!) Though it's probably possible to... kind of spin my version to where the dichotomy is Living/Unifying rather than Dark/Light, if you like.
Also, ooooh, shiny! @ your crack theory!
epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-16 09:52 am (UTC)Yay! Seriously, you're one of the only people I've run into that doesn't go for the mirror-opposites thing (which as I've watched ANH is kind of o_O). Even before they came up with the surprise twins thing, I think Luke and Leia's relationship was always framed as one of affinity, while they each had the OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT GET THIS? clash with Han. (Okay, and the STOP SHOOTING THINGS WE NEED A PLAN clash, ha.)
I just kind of figured it's part of the fantastic-ness, that in the GFFA traits really can be passed down en masse regardless of upbringing? As TV Tropes says, it's In The Blood. But we only really see it with the Skywalkers, so it could definitely be something weird about their blood specifically.
Ah, Yoda with a lightsaber actually bothers me more than Palpatine with one -- because while it's superfluous and pointless (IMO) for Palpatine, Yoda fighting with one seems to be against everything that he was about. Luke wouldn't even know how to use his if not for Obi-Wan. And, I mean, you can say that he found enlightenment in the swamp and came to regret his previous militarism etc etc, but -- ack, it just seemed wrong.
I... there's a part of me that wants Padme to be the one who's ambivalent and it's Anakin's wholehearted squee when she tells him that makes her keep the pregnancy?
Ooh, that would have been interesting! I didn't think of that, though I did think it would have been interesting if Padmé (the politician) was the one pushing the relationship while Anakin (the monk) was reluctant to break his vows after ten years' dedication. But yeah, I think it would have fit the overall arc a little better. And yeah, Padmé's death by despair would make more sense that way. (In cracktheory land, it's simply that she's mortal and carrying one half-divine child would sap quite enough of her will.)
Re: the children -- I think that could work for the Jedi; he doesn't seem to distinguish between the kids and the adults. But with the Tuskens, he very definitely talks about "the women and the children" as separate from the men, which makes me think he does lump them together as a helpless group.
I can totally see Palpatine using the Jedi for propaganda, though. I had the sort of vague idea that Anakin figured they were better off dying quickly than being left to whatever fate Palpatine had designed for them, or at least told him that he did.
Empress Amidala with Vader as her badass enforcer/adoring husband is one of my favorite things ever at all.
ME TOO. Seriously, I'm all flappy-hands because I love this idea and so often it's Emperor Skywalker/Vader with Padmé as his consort. Technically, even in hex (not that it isn't wonderful!). And honestly, I don't think Vader ever wanted to be the chief administrator of the government -- he wanted someone wise and charismatic and peace-making to do that, and for him to enforce the imperial will.
In light of the PT, anyway, I think that's the offer he was making to Padmé -- to serve her in the same capacity he did the Emperor (though with more sexytiemz and less homicidal rages) and then to Luke (with more hyper-protectiveness). He phrased it rather badly, of course.
There really is a sad dearth of Empress Amidala fics, honestly. And I can see so many ways it could have happened. And actually, I think it's much more probable than Anakin himself becoming Supreme Ruler of Everything. Padmé would be super-creepy too, because she's like Leia in that respect -- she'd have to believe she was right all the way. (While I think Anakin and Luke are willing to do things they realize are wrong in pursuit of a higher goal, and I suspect would stay with Padmé or Leia to the end, even if they hated themselves all the while.)
I was kind of 'whatevs' about doctor!Padmé -- if she weren't a politician, I suspect she'd be a human/sentient rights lawyer of some kind, or something like that. But I loved the schism in the Order and the new one and a;kdfja;djkf;akdfa;dkjf
The drabble is available here! FLAILY MCFLAIL
"Uncle Anakin!"
Now that I think about it, Revenge!Leia is over two years older than Luke, so she'd have been five. She probably remembers him. Vaguely and maybe not by name, but ... ;_;
I think Revenge!Bail liked Anakin personally, but their worldviews were very different for that reason -- Bail was an aristocrat and a politician, and Anakin was an ex-slave, secret Jedi, and soldier (and constitutionally opposed to being deferential to anybody, even the prince he ostensibly served) and seemed rather hard and abrasive to him . And I always imagine Anakin as a storyteller, and I suspect he didn't take, ah, that much care to customize his stories to his audience (which only made him more kickass to little Leia, of course, who always looked forward to his visits for just that reason).
Obi-Wan: yeah, that's why he'd be a tragic hero. Because there were so many reasons why he failed, and some of them are sympathetic. But then again LEAVING HIM TO BURN ALIVE OMG (will never get over this, seriously). But even before that, he seemed a rather -- bad teacher anyway? Like, not in an OMFG WHAT DID YOU JUST DO NO way, but just "wow, you know what is the worst possible way to deal with a student who is (1) immensely gifted, (2) from a traumatically awful background, and (3) in the throes of adolescent angst? PUBLIC HUMILIATION, THAT'S WHAT."
Honestly, I don't think Anakin would have been vulnerable to Palpatine's encouragement if he'd, I don't know, been able to get it somewhere else. (Qui-Gon, for all his flaws, would probably have been a much better role model -- someone who could show him that it's possible to be a Jedi without being an orthodox Jedi -- even that you can do some really morally ambiguous things without heading straight into Sith Lord territory.)
well, I thank you for pushing me to unpack it
Aha, any time! And yeah, there's definitely that dichotomy between attachment/compassionate detachment -- which is interesting for wrt ROTJ, where Obi-Wan and Yoda are all "you must confront/kill your father for the good of the galaxy" and Luke is "...no." And generally Luke is very attached and I'd argue it works out for the best that he tries to balance his (perfectly valid) attachments with the serenity and non-aggression and patience and so on.
But he has to walk a pretty narrow line, I think, and when he falls off it's pretty nasty. But the problem isn't that he loves his sister so much, and not at all in approved Jedi fashion -- I mean, not impersonally. It's the, y'know, MAIM KILL DESTROY thing.
And the sickness in the Force is that people are adhering rigidly to one or the other and rejecting the opposing paradigm.
Right! Maybe more of an order-chaos thing within the Force, with the Jedi leaning so far towards order that they're growing distant from the Force and stagnating. But Palpatine's UNLIMITED POWAHHH! isn't any better. Since the entirety of the Force is generated by the galaxy, it seems reasonable to me that some kind of colossal imbalance like that is what generates the Dark Side. (So I think the old Jedi Order was basically like the Omnian church in Small Gods, more about the dogma and structure than the Force itself, which is what put it out of whack. And of course that was based on Catholicism so it all winds back.)
Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-16 10:03 am (UTC)But he strikes me as a little out of touch with the reality of war, maybe, and kind of YAY REVOLUTION! Where the others are more measured and cautious, I think. And I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way he, Yoda, and Obi-Wan assume custody of the Skywalker twins, even though they have basically no rights to them AND the children have plenty of relatives who are not psychotic Sith Lords.
Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-17 12:17 am (UTC)Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-17 04:10 am (UTC)and psychologically scarredthe same her father was, I'm going to do it RIGHT." (That's pretty much what I based Lucy!Bail off of.) But I can see your reading too.Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-18 10:17 pm (UTC)Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-17 12:11 am (UTC)Oooh, I like the way you're framing Luke and Leia! And you're right that Han is in many ways the odd one out in the early phase of the 3-way interaction. But, yeah, I'm more interested in the ways that each of them has things in common with both parents (and each other), y'know?
Yoda I could accept as having more to do with lightsabers, simply because he trains Jedi; his duels in the PT were just silly, but him with a 'saber per se didn't bug me in itself. The Emperor, on the other hand--- no, just no. He does his fighting with words and ideas, dammit!
Yeah, Padme being the one who was chill about the rulebreaking would have been interesting! (It's my headcanon that the way the marriage proposal came about was that the two of them were ranting about the squick of the cloned slave soldiers on the way back from Geonosis while Anakin convalesced, and by the time they got to Naboo they had sort of worked themselves up to a place where they were both like, "These people have lost their standing to pass moral judgements on us, let's do this thing," where it's more than half a private rebellion against the moral decay around them.) And I'm glad you like ambivalent-mother!Padme and squeefully-paternal!Anakin! :D :D :D (And, yeah, feeling the need to turn the, "Women are always asquee about being pregnant and men, especially young ones, are always ambivalent about fatherhood," because, really, it's Anakin who thrives on connections, here.) And I like your cracktheory! Mine is that someone who's not strong in the Force carrying a child with a high midichlorian count is automatically a high-risk pregnancy because the midichlorians affect the endocrine system--- then you add all the stressors in Padme's life and her body just couldn't pull it off any longer. So, basically the same thing but with crack!science instead of crack!spirituality. :)
And, yeah, the Tuskens seem to be a separate thing; I mean, the woman to whom he is telling this led a castle onslaught at fourteen and he was there, so he can't have thought of all women as non-combatants; it must have been something specific to whatever Anakin knew, or thought he did, about Tusken culture?
This is me agreeing with you so so hard about the Anakin/Padme galaxy-ruling division of labor!!!!!! You put it perfectly!
I am laughing so hard at the last sentence. Because, really, that's Anakin, always with his foot lodged firmly in his mouth. (Maybe he got more quasi-eloquent by the time of the OT because he just didn't care enough to be made awkward in his speech patterns? LOL and ow.) But, oh, yes, he wants Padme to run the galaxy while he serves as her complaint department, lol. And if he had told her that... well, actually, regardless of how he put it, I have trouble with the fact that Padme was not willing to take the man she loved up on his offer to overthrow a tyrant with him. And then, you know, reestablish the democracy (while Anakin probably sulks a little or possibly a lot until she distracts him with sexytiems or possibly childrearing; in that scenario, Anakin is totally the primary parent while Padme is off running the galactic government, IMO.)
Yes, totally a sentients'-rights lawyer! And I am so in agreement about the schism and Anakin confronting Yoda and... squee! And also squee about the drabble!
OMG!!!! Leia remembering Anakin is epic!!!! Epic!!!! I love it so hard!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Yes, yes, that is Anakin.
I love this so hard. And I have this idea that Leia also kind of wrapped him around her finger, too?
PREACH IT. HARDSTYLE. He's... I get it's his first time as a teacher and he's just out of his own apprenticeship and probably had all kinds of issues about Anakin because of Qui-gon, but. Dude, get over yourself, the boy needs you. And you are absolutely right about Obi-wan's whole "public humiliation as teaching tool" schtick (which, horribly enough, Padme also does to him--- that poor boy can't catch a break!)
Quoted for so very much truth! You are exactly right! (Well, and I love Qui-gon almost uncritically. He's so much what I would want the Jedi Order to be!)
Yeah, exactly, it's line-walking--- it's not staying as far from the edge as possible, it's learning how to balance it, and how to have a balanced reaction; to have that attachment in a healthy way. Which of course the Jedi Order was completely not teaching as of the PT. And Anakin's turn to the Dark might well have been averted if they'd had that space where personalize and reciprocal love, and not just detached compassion, was allowed--- for one thing, he could've just asked for help for Padme! And gotten it, instead of the let-go-of-everything bile.
And yes on the dogma and structure cart coming before the divine-energy horse! It's my headcanon that it's natural for Force- sensitive kids to have their first experiences of using the Force be joyful and exciting, (e.g. Anakin in the podrace). And I think the Jedi initially (and by initially I mean "founding of the Order") conceived of their no-emotion, no-attachment approach simply to get themselves to derive all their joy from their experience of the Force, so that they would use it more and develop their powers more strongly. Over time, the no-emotion cart got put before the "use the Force" horse, and the Jedi even started seeing that joy as suspect (hinted at when Anakin indicates that Obi-wan wouldn't approve of his using the Force to play around in AotC; the Jedi obviously don't categorize that sort of thing as a useful practice of Jedi powers, which would be sensible, so I'm extrapolating that it has to do with the joyfulness angle.) I think this combination--- the restriction of emotion for its own sake and the limiting the use of Force--- is what clouded the Jedi's use of the Force: they weren't practiced enough, and their lack of emotionality further etiolated their ability to connect with the Force. It's possible to use the Force dispassionately, but it's weaker because you have to use mental discipline to compensate for the lack of that intensity.
Also, I meant to say this upthread, but I really liked the connection you made with both Anakin and the future always being in motion, and how it's interesting that he (and later his son) have precognitive powers--- a special relationship of sorts with the future.
Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-17 04:44 am (UTC)Re: Yoda -- well, I guess I didn't figure that he trained them in a way that involved lightsabers, based on how he trained Luke. It was all "luminous beings are we" and forbidding any attack ever and such -- where Obi-Wan was a general and turned out warriors, I thought Yoda would have turned out seers and peacemakers (and Anakin's obsessive focus on foresight and order and ending the war would have fit much better with that).
But then, I think Yoda and Palpatine are pretty obviously meant to parallel each other, anyway. Yoda's a trickster, too, and the moment when he lifts the ship with his mind is clearly analogous to Palpatine breaking out the lightning.
"These people have lost their standing to pass moral judgements on us, let's do this thing," where it's more than half a private rebellion against the moral decay around them.
Oh, I rather like this idea! So often Padmé is still reluctant (though I liked one, where she wanted to be with him but didn't care about being married, while Anakin was set on having everything signed in triplicate), which doesn't really fit where she is at that point.
Re: parenthood -- yeah. Both with some parts of their relationship to each other and definitely with how they reacted to their children, it seemed it drew more from stereotypes than from their particular characters. So it'd be very satisfying to see them buck the trend (especially since there are ways they do it otherwise, like the father being the one to sacrifice himself for the child, not the mother).
Mine is that someone who's not strong in the Force carrying a child with a high midichlorian count is automatically a high-risk pregnancy because the midichlorians affect the endocrine system
That works! And of course it's not just one child, but two -- so yeah, screwed. I tend to prefer the more fantastic side of things, but that probably fits with the PT better anyway.
Re: Obi-Wan's teaching style -- "get over yourself" is pretty much my constant mantra, ha. I mean, Qui-Gon trying to exchange them was less than smooth, but wtf Obi-Wan, he's NINE. YOU ARE THE ADULT. ACT LIKE IT. And he's really still a kid in AOTC and ... no.
(Padmé carrying on the public humilitation was a bit wtf for me too, but it bothers me less -- I think because she doesn't have direct authority over him, she's probably following Obi-Wan's lead anyway, and I think it has more to do with her conflicted feelings about him than putting him in his place.
Obi-Wan, otoh, was all about putting him in his place. And the thing that I struggle with is...he was a pretty messed-up mentor to Luke, too. EVEN AFTER HE WAS DEAD. So it's like he never quite got what his real failure was? It really wasn't not being Yoda.)
Re: Qui-Gon -- Hm, I'm a bit iffy about some of his choices. The entire podrace plotline is incredibly bewildering to me and I don't really see any moral difference between mind-tricking someone into accepting worthless money and just robbing him. But I still think he had a much better grasp on the Force and, um, basic decency than a lot of the others did. And I think he'd have been a better master for Anakin.
nd Anakin's turn to the Dark might well have been averted if they'd had that space where personalize and reciprocal love, and not just detached compassion, was allowed
Exactly! And a lot of Luke's problems would have been averted too. At least he had a support network. But Anakin? No, there was nothing to catch him when he fell (literally!).
It's my headcanon that it's natural for Force- sensitive kids to have their first experiences of using the Force be joyful and exciting
That's kind of awesome. I mean, I think a lot of the time they wouldn't realize it -- Luke's exceptional abilities, for instance, obviously come from the Force, but he doesn't consciously use it until he blows up the Death Star. And that usage seems both a calm and ecstatic kind of thing, which really seems what it should be about. And I really like your idea of how the Order wound around to where we see them.
I really liked the connection you made with both Anakin and the future always being in motion, and how it's interesting that he (and later his son) have precognitive powers
Awesome! Yes, he and Luke and Shmi are all drawn towards the, whatsit, "unformed potential" -- they're really all about what can be changed, influenced, what they can do. And Luke has to go from obsessively fixating on the future, like his father, to facing the present and then the past, which he ends up dealing the most with. Shmi, of course, can only really deal with the present and Anakin is still stuck peering into the future. So it's...yeah. *waves* I had this whole arc planned about their relationship to time and space and stuff.
Re: epic teal deer are epic!
on 2011-09-18 10:15 pm (UTC)I'm glad you like my "marriage as rebellion" theory! And I agree completely that their reactions to parenthood were almost painfully stereotypical. (Actually, I have that trouble with Padme throughout RotS.)
Re: midichlorians: it's weird, I tend to veer away from the mystical side, and this is Star Wars, for cryin' out loud! It's space fantasy; clearly there is something wrong with me, lol. But, either way, carrying strongly Force-sensitive fetii is a big-time risk.
Re: Obi-wan: Yes, just yes. I like your mantra. And, yeah, that man never really seems to learn what his issues are--- any more than Yoda does, really. (I have soulsoothing fantasies about ghost!Qui-gon chewing them out royally for at least the first few years of their respective exiles.)
Yeah, you're right about the whole (completely stupid anyway) podrace plot. I read Qui-gon as having, by that point... almost a sort of moral fatigue? Because he really wants to do things like fight just wars and free slaves, and the Jedi Order has him mediating frickin' trade disputes and he's just on some level emotionally exhausted from fighting them on all these points. And they're supposed to be the arbiters of what goodness is, and yet, as you rightly pointed out, they're more about the rules and less about the Force. So... when he can act, within the scope of what the Order permits (or a little beyond it, heheh), he does. And there's also a level for me where... the whole thing has also eroded his own conscience just that much, if that makes sense? Where his own ethics have gotten a little fuzzy around the edges from all the times where what he valued would have been more ethical than what the Order allowed. But, oh yes, a much better mentor for Anakin! (I can totally see the two of them just smirking at each other over some piece of rule-bending/gray-area-ness. And Obi-wan off on the sidelines going, "Qui-gon, you are supposed to be the responsible adult here! You are corrupting that boy!" And Qui-gon being all blase and "We do what we must, Obi-wan." And Anakin snickering. And, as you say, Anakin also learning how to navigate moral conundra in a less absolute sort of way.) (On which note: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," really, Obi-wan? And what was that that just came out of your mouth, hmmmm? Could it be... an absolute? *eyeroll*)
Oooh, I'm glad you like my whole joyful-intuitive-connection-to-the-Force idea! It just seemed--- on the one hand, something that would make sense and on the other something that the Jedi Order as of the PT would have been utterly appalled at. (And I love appalling the Jedi Order; it's good for them. :) )
And oh, I look forward to hearing more about the Revenge!verse Skywalker family's relationship to the space-time continuum!!!! (Actually, I just look forward to anything and everything Revenge!verse related, but that sounds especially cool.)