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anghraineThis was a weird section for me, and probably one of the more artificial section breaks. Basically, this is the one where -- I felt -- Tricia was arguing that people dislike Padmé because they blame her for certain poor choices and aren't given evidence of her position as a political leader. I disagree on both counts, and dislike her characterization anyway!
For that reason, at times, Padmé’s role in the saga has been unfairly scrutinized.
Unfairly? She's the only major female character for three movies. As far as I'm concerned, she can't be scrutinized enough. That's not to say she should be criticized without ... I do think she gets more criticism - I think there's a lot of sexism in the criticisms of her (basically of everything she wears), but saying we shouldn't look at her closely? Eh.
She doesn’t have the Force; there are no mad Jedi skillz to show us how powerful her character is.
It's not [sigh] it's not the skills alone that show us how powerful a character is, but [sigh] it's ... even if you just look at Anakin - as Darth Vader ... Vader is a total badass before he does anything with the Force. In ANH, he takes out a lightsaber once in a really slow and rather poorly-staged duel with Obi-Wan. He uses the Force, what? Once? And yet he was the badass to beat all badasses. There is no [laugh], and yet he came across that strongly. He came across more strongly than he was ever intended to do. It's not just that [laugh] I honestly don't think Padmé's lack of Jedi skills is even remotely relevant.
In a weird way she is the kind of Han figure of the prequels. Han didn't have the Force. Padmé is the sort of - you do get that tension between the side that is the heroic fantasy, the high fantasy, and the side that is more sci-fi-ish, space opera, it's, I don't want to say realistic but at least more realistic than the other part. There's this tension bteween the two sides of the story. The thing is that in the originals, Han was the side that was the more quasi-realistic side, I guess the grungier side, the one who was skeptical, the one who - all he had was his blaster at his side, and he manages to get by in a universe that has lightsabers and telekinetic choking powers in it, and even though, you put Han face to face with a Force user, he's not going to win - and he doesn't - but he ... as a character, carries his weight. I don't think - in fact, I think the fact that he didn't have the Force made his character even more compelling than otherwise.
And in the prequels, I think Padmé not being a Force-user, [laugh] assuming that she's not, I think that in TPM, actually, that did add to how cool she was. She managed to pull the wool over the Jedi's eyes, she was in disguise and then she wasn't and she took back her own city and she was badass all the time, and she always had things in more control than anyone knew she did, and she was fourteen. She did this in a universe full of Jedi, not just a handful of the them like in the originals. That was part of what made her so cool. So yeah, I think it's - I doubt the lack of mad Jedi skillz - we got a good idea of how powerful her character was.
I’m the first to admit there are storytelling elements that could have been portrayed just a bit differently in the movies that would have helped show her strength more clearly.
Oh?
When listening to the criticisms of her character, though, it seems to me that it often boils down to judging her harshly for the choices she made regarding Anakin.
The two things I see her criticized for the - no, there are three, that I see her criticized the most for. The first is her reaction to the slaughter of the Sand People, which as I said before, is much about her character than how it pertains to him. Whether she failed him or not, she failed her own principles. The second one I hear is her clothes, I hear a whole ton of stuff about how "oh, she's leading him on" or "if she didn't really want to be with him, why was she wearing such revealing clothing?" or "she's such a cocktease!" or - yeah, shut up. And the third I hear is "seriously, she died of the loss of the will to live? That's the stupidest thing ever!" I don't really see how this is really about Anakin? Or choices she made about Anakin? They're not choices about him at all, I don't think.
Some perceive Padmé as an enabler,
She is -- I do see that scene as enabling him, but that's not - I mean, I don't think her response was how any reasonable person would respond to what he did, and it does serve to enable him, but that's more of a consequence. For me, that's not really - there are reasons to find that horrifying and derailing for her character and making her seem like not a very good person that don't have to do with the effect it has on Anakin. [sigh]
others view her as double-speaking temptress,
Yes, and those people are asshats.
and still others see her death as a faint-hearted escape from all the poor choices she had made.
I don't agree with this. She didn't really make any choices at all in ROTS. Like, yeah - I do not really get how her actions in ROTS can be considered - she would have to have done something to be judged for having done something. It's not that she's trying to escape bad choices, nothing that happened in ROTS is really her fault. I guess I just find this really confusing. Giving up the will to live because everything she defined herself by was gone - her marriage and the Republic and I guess maybe Naboo - those aren't choices she made.
She didn't cause the fall of the Republic. At least she had no more part in it than anybody else did. She didn't cause Anakin to fall. She didn't do anything to make him fall. A lot of other people contributed and he did it because of her, but she didn't cause - but it wasn't any active part. It's a faint-hearted escape from how incredibly awful everything is. In and of itself, the idea of her just giving up the will to live is just stupid, I do agree with the people who are "what the hell is that?" - especially because of her role as the closest-thing-to-Han-Solo we have in the prequels. I mean, can you seriously see [laugh] him ever doing that? So it is particularly ridiculous for her character. But again, it's not about escaping the consequences of her own decisions.
She basically commits suicide - she does commit suicide: suicide by will-power. She's like Clarissa. (That's a comparison I hope never to make again.) But I don't see -- I don't know, maybe I am hanging out in the wrong fandom corners.
For many, these issues overshadow her role as an elected leader, first as Queen and then as Senator, and the esteem she had within the ranks of other powerful male and female beings.
Uh...yeah? I mean - yeah, it's like, there are some things that nobody - that people who have issues with the Sand People thing or the death thing or even [sigh] the clothes thing, I rarely see people denying that she was impressive when she was. Even Cracked - Cracked articles, which are like misogynistic nightmares, tend to be like 'yeah, she was a total badass in The Phantom Menace.' Yes, she was a senator, yes she was a powerful female figure, nobody denies this. The problem is that it's completely undercut by these other things. It doesn't make them not happen, it just - it doesn't - it's not like there's some cosmic scale where there's 'here's the progressive stuff' and 'here's the reactionary stuff' and if they add up to the same they cancel each other out - it doesn't work like that.
We are given rare glimpses into this part of her character onscreen, though,
I disagree! We see a lot of her as an elected leader. Way more than I even wanted to, actually. [laugh] So yeah, I don't see that.
and they’re never quite as flashy as her male counterparts in the story.
That's true. It's completely and utterly boring. [laugh] Honestly. And [sigh] I don't want to be one of those people, but the thing is, this can work. This can be done well. Because, look at Leia. She was elected leader at eighteen, only a few years older than Padmé. We knew she was a senator. And so we had that idea, okay, she's a senator. We knew she was a spy, we saw her doing it. We knew she's a Rebel leader, we saw her leading the Rebellion. So we got this image of this powerful leader, but we didn't have to actually see the boring administrative details. Like, we knew Leia was a senator, but we didn't have to see her being in the Senate to know that she was. We didn't have to see the ins and outs of Rebel leadership. She just wandered into a ship and shit gets done. That's sufficient, and it's not boring.
So this is one where I think we do see Padmé's role as a leader, and a sort of politically powerful person [cough (not snide, just coughing)] but [laugh] what we kind of say, it's, well, it's boring and I think, like I said, there are ways to make someone like that, whose power is largely political, you can make them really interesting. Again, Leia. Nobody knew she was Force-sensitive. George Lucas didn't know she was Force-sensitive for the first two movies. And yet it doesn't make a difference, so yeah, I ... I really doubt this one.
For that reason, at times, Padmé’s role in the saga has been unfairly scrutinized.
Unfairly? She's the only major female character for three movies. As far as I'm concerned, she can't be scrutinized enough. That's not to say she should be criticized without ... I do think she gets more criticism - I think there's a lot of sexism in the criticisms of her (basically of everything she wears), but saying we shouldn't look at her closely? Eh.
She doesn’t have the Force; there are no mad Jedi skillz to show us how powerful her character is.
It's not [sigh] it's not the skills alone that show us how powerful a character is, but [sigh] it's ... even if you just look at Anakin - as Darth Vader ... Vader is a total badass before he does anything with the Force. In ANH, he takes out a lightsaber once in a really slow and rather poorly-staged duel with Obi-Wan. He uses the Force, what? Once? And yet he was the badass to beat all badasses. There is no [laugh], and yet he came across that strongly. He came across more strongly than he was ever intended to do. It's not just that [laugh] I honestly don't think Padmé's lack of Jedi skills is even remotely relevant.
In a weird way she is the kind of Han figure of the prequels. Han didn't have the Force. Padmé is the sort of - you do get that tension between the side that is the heroic fantasy, the high fantasy, and the side that is more sci-fi-ish, space opera, it's, I don't want to say realistic but at least more realistic than the other part. There's this tension bteween the two sides of the story. The thing is that in the originals, Han was the side that was the more quasi-realistic side, I guess the grungier side, the one who was skeptical, the one who - all he had was his blaster at his side, and he manages to get by in a universe that has lightsabers and telekinetic choking powers in it, and even though, you put Han face to face with a Force user, he's not going to win - and he doesn't - but he ... as a character, carries his weight. I don't think - in fact, I think the fact that he didn't have the Force made his character even more compelling than otherwise.
And in the prequels, I think Padmé not being a Force-user, [laugh] assuming that she's not, I think that in TPM, actually, that did add to how cool she was. She managed to pull the wool over the Jedi's eyes, she was in disguise and then she wasn't and she took back her own city and she was badass all the time, and she always had things in more control than anyone knew she did, and she was fourteen. She did this in a universe full of Jedi, not just a handful of the them like in the originals. That was part of what made her so cool. So yeah, I think it's - I doubt the lack of mad Jedi skillz - we got a good idea of how powerful her character was.
I’m the first to admit there are storytelling elements that could have been portrayed just a bit differently in the movies that would have helped show her strength more clearly.
Oh?
When listening to the criticisms of her character, though, it seems to me that it often boils down to judging her harshly for the choices she made regarding Anakin.
The two things I see her criticized for the - no, there are three, that I see her criticized the most for. The first is her reaction to the slaughter of the Sand People, which as I said before, is much about her character than how it pertains to him. Whether she failed him or not, she failed her own principles. The second one I hear is her clothes, I hear a whole ton of stuff about how "oh, she's leading him on" or "if she didn't really want to be with him, why was she wearing such revealing clothing?" or "she's such a cocktease!" or - yeah, shut up. And the third I hear is "seriously, she died of the loss of the will to live? That's the stupidest thing ever!" I don't really see how this is really about Anakin? Or choices she made about Anakin? They're not choices about him at all, I don't think.
Some perceive Padmé as an enabler,
She is -- I do see that scene as enabling him, but that's not - I mean, I don't think her response was how any reasonable person would respond to what he did, and it does serve to enable him, but that's more of a consequence. For me, that's not really - there are reasons to find that horrifying and derailing for her character and making her seem like not a very good person that don't have to do with the effect it has on Anakin. [sigh]
others view her as double-speaking temptress,
Yes, and those people are asshats.
and still others see her death as a faint-hearted escape from all the poor choices she had made.
I don't agree with this. She didn't really make any choices at all in ROTS. Like, yeah - I do not really get how her actions in ROTS can be considered - she would have to have done something to be judged for having done something. It's not that she's trying to escape bad choices, nothing that happened in ROTS is really her fault. I guess I just find this really confusing. Giving up the will to live because everything she defined herself by was gone - her marriage and the Republic and I guess maybe Naboo - those aren't choices she made.
She didn't cause the fall of the Republic. At least she had no more part in it than anybody else did. She didn't cause Anakin to fall. She didn't do anything to make him fall. A lot of other people contributed and he did it because of her, but she didn't cause - but it wasn't any active part. It's a faint-hearted escape from how incredibly awful everything is. In and of itself, the idea of her just giving up the will to live is just stupid, I do agree with the people who are "what the hell is that?" - especially because of her role as the closest-thing-to-Han-Solo we have in the prequels. I mean, can you seriously see [laugh] him ever doing that? So it is particularly ridiculous for her character. But again, it's not about escaping the consequences of her own decisions.
She basically commits suicide - she does commit suicide: suicide by will-power. She's like Clarissa. (That's a comparison I hope never to make again.) But I don't see -- I don't know, maybe I am hanging out in the wrong fandom corners.
For many, these issues overshadow her role as an elected leader, first as Queen and then as Senator, and the esteem she had within the ranks of other powerful male and female beings.
Uh...yeah? I mean - yeah, it's like, there are some things that nobody - that people who have issues with the Sand People thing or the death thing or even [sigh] the clothes thing, I rarely see people denying that she was impressive when she was. Even Cracked - Cracked articles, which are like misogynistic nightmares, tend to be like 'yeah, she was a total badass in The Phantom Menace.' Yes, she was a senator, yes she was a powerful female figure, nobody denies this. The problem is that it's completely undercut by these other things. It doesn't make them not happen, it just - it doesn't - it's not like there's some cosmic scale where there's 'here's the progressive stuff' and 'here's the reactionary stuff' and if they add up to the same they cancel each other out - it doesn't work like that.
We are given rare glimpses into this part of her character onscreen, though,
I disagree! We see a lot of her as an elected leader. Way more than I even wanted to, actually. [laugh] So yeah, I don't see that.
and they’re never quite as flashy as her male counterparts in the story.
That's true. It's completely and utterly boring. [laugh] Honestly. And [sigh] I don't want to be one of those people, but the thing is, this can work. This can be done well. Because, look at Leia. She was elected leader at eighteen, only a few years older than Padmé. We knew she was a senator. And so we had that idea, okay, she's a senator. We knew she was a spy, we saw her doing it. We knew she's a Rebel leader, we saw her leading the Rebellion. So we got this image of this powerful leader, but we didn't have to actually see the boring administrative details. Like, we knew Leia was a senator, but we didn't have to see her being in the Senate to know that she was. We didn't have to see the ins and outs of Rebel leadership. She just wandered into a ship and shit gets done. That's sufficient, and it's not boring.
So this is one where I think we do see Padmé's role as a leader, and a sort of politically powerful person [cough (not snide, just coughing)] but [laugh] what we kind of say, it's, well, it's boring and I think, like I said, there are ways to make someone like that, whose power is largely political, you can make them really interesting. Again, Leia. Nobody knew she was Force-sensitive. George Lucas didn't know she was Force-sensitive for the first two movies. And yet it doesn't make a difference, so yeah, I ... I really doubt this one.
no subject
on 2012-02-02 07:54 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2012-02-06 09:24 am (UTC)I do have to give a ton of credit to the actors. I mean, I've loved the PT actors in other things, and part of the joy of the OT IS the spectacle and the campiness and drawing from all sorts of sources and putting them together in a reasonably coherent way and ANH, in particular, has some great editing - I do think there's other stuff. But they do a great job, especially of walking that line between "camp" and "bad" regardless of how awful their dialogue is, and giving the characters life and making the relationships not just convincing but absolutely iconic. So they really do deserve all the kudos.
(I do think the OT's dialogue, while often clunky and awkward, still doesn't begin to approach the awfulness of the PT's, though.)