Tumblr crosspost (7 June 2019)
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anghraineFor me, one of the most depressing moments in Denethor and Faramir’s relationship is not the … obvious, but when Faramir points out that he didn’t have the benefit of Denethor’s advice when he made the call about the Ring. Denethor bitterly responds that it’s been a long time since he managed to change Faramir’s mind about anything, anyway, because Gandalf is the one Faramir actually loves.
I do not blame Faramir a particle for adhering to his own high principles, to be clear. He absolutely made the right call. But their dynamic is vastly more complex than “Denethor wishes Faramir were dead.”
Of the two of them, he would rather Boromir survived, sure—specifically because Faramir doesn’t listen to him, but just follows his own mind and Gandalf’s, where Boromir was loyal and obedient to Denethor. It’s not just about the Ring. This dynamic has been going on for a long time; the Appendices say that Faramir displeased Denethor in many things.
This isn’t about a vicious father baselessly attacking a perfectly mild and accommodating son. It’s a clash between two immensely stubborn, strong-willed men who each “listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind” while operating on radically different moral systems. Denethor loves Gondor above all else, and his decisions are shaped by what he thinks is best for Gondor, no matter what sacrifices are necessary. Faramir also loves Gondor and is willing to do extraordinary things for it, but not anything; he follows his own conscience above all else. To Denethor, that’s selfish; to Faramir, it’s imperative.
Beyond that, though, the clash is deeply personal. “Wizard’s pupil” isn’t about how unworthy Faramir is. It’s about Faramir listening to Gandalf where (at least in Denethor’s view) he actively ignores the guidance of his own father. And when Faramir says “So be it” to Denethor’s insistence that in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death, Denethor bursts out,
Denethor is, of course, included in Faramir’s people anyway, but he emphasizes that Faramir is willing to sacrifice him to principle. And he emphasizes that Faramir loves Gandalf rather than him:
After Denethor’s mind finally breaks, he almost recovers himself when Faramir calls out to him:
And when he loses his mind again, he cries out to Gandalf:
He’s speaking directly to Gandalf there, and it reflects more than Gandalf carrying Faramir away in that moment. Through the other scenes, it’s clear that he does think Gandalf has effectively taken Faramir from him, and he’s fixated on that apparent fact—it’s not just pragmatically objectionable, but painful as a father. He wants Faramir to listen to him instead of Gandalf, to love him instead of Gandalf, to be more his son than Gandalf’s pupil.
The real tragedy, of course, is that while Faramir admires and respects Gandalf, and it’s perhaps suggestive that he’s told Gandalf’s name as a Maia, he talks of Gandalf as a fairly remote figure. It’s not Gandalf he calls for in his fever. It’s Gandalf who reminds him of Denethor’s love for him, not Gandalf whose love he really wants. Faramir loves Denethor.
Still, the perception of Faramir as desperate for the affection of an uncaring Denethor is almost the exact opposite of how I see them. They each want the other’s affection, but their conversations are dominated by Denethor’s resentment of Faramir’s supposed indifference. It’s Denethor who is obsessed with Faramir’s lack of devotion, and Faramir who refuses to give way unless directly ordered.
It’s a terrible, messy situation between a father and son who do, in fact, love each other, but are at such cross-purposes and under such strain that it’s not clear to either of them until both are on the point of death. And it’s really unfortunate, imo, that it’s so often presented as something less profoundly tragic than that.
tags:
#two thirds of my middle earth feelings are just faramir and denethor feelings tbh #i'm def 'lol no' at the idea that faramir was actually wrong in what he did #but the dynamic revolves /so much/ around denethor's conviction that faramir doesn't really love him #like ... it feels dismissive to say that faramir hurt his feelings but also it's clear that he /is/ very deeply hurt #and that pervades the 'if only boromir' element #while faramir is obviously also hurt but i feel that he's less obsessed with it #until the realization that denethor would rather he were dead than boromir #that's why it's so devastating! #(i also have always felt that boromir was something of a buffer between them that held the family together #and kept denethor and faramir from being at painful odds all the time #and with his death it's just this tragic disaster)
I do not blame Faramir a particle for adhering to his own high principles, to be clear. He absolutely made the right call. But their dynamic is vastly more complex than “Denethor wishes Faramir were dead.”
Of the two of them, he would rather Boromir survived, sure—specifically because Faramir doesn’t listen to him, but just follows his own mind and Gandalf’s, where Boromir was loyal and obedient to Denethor. It’s not just about the Ring. This dynamic has been going on for a long time; the Appendices say that Faramir displeased Denethor in many things.
This isn’t about a vicious father baselessly attacking a perfectly mild and accommodating son. It’s a clash between two immensely stubborn, strong-willed men who each “listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind” while operating on radically different moral systems. Denethor loves Gondor above all else, and his decisions are shaped by what he thinks is best for Gondor, no matter what sacrifices are necessary. Faramir also loves Gondor and is willing to do extraordinary things for it, but not anything; he follows his own conscience above all else. To Denethor, that’s selfish; to Faramir, it’s imperative.
Beyond that, though, the clash is deeply personal. “Wizard’s pupil” isn’t about how unworthy Faramir is. It’s about Faramir listening to Gandalf where (at least in Denethor’s view) he actively ignores the guidance of his own father. And when Faramir says “So be it” to Denethor’s insistence that in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death, Denethor bursts out,
“But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people.”
Denethor is, of course, included in Faramir’s people anyway, but he emphasizes that Faramir is willing to sacrifice him to principle. And he emphasizes that Faramir loves Gandalf rather than him:
“He has long had your heart in his keeping.”
After Denethor’s mind finally breaks, he almost recovers himself when Faramir calls out to him:
Denethor started as one waking from a trance, and the flame died in his eyes, and he wept; and he said: ‘Do not take my son from me!’
And when he loses his mind again, he cries out to Gandalf:
“Thou hadst already stolen half my son’s love.”
He’s speaking directly to Gandalf there, and it reflects more than Gandalf carrying Faramir away in that moment. Through the other scenes, it’s clear that he does think Gandalf has effectively taken Faramir from him, and he’s fixated on that apparent fact—it’s not just pragmatically objectionable, but painful as a father. He wants Faramir to listen to him instead of Gandalf, to love him instead of Gandalf, to be more his son than Gandalf’s pupil.
The real tragedy, of course, is that while Faramir admires and respects Gandalf, and it’s perhaps suggestive that he’s told Gandalf’s name as a Maia, he talks of Gandalf as a fairly remote figure. It’s not Gandalf he calls for in his fever. It’s Gandalf who reminds him of Denethor’s love for him, not Gandalf whose love he really wants. Faramir loves Denethor.
Still, the perception of Faramir as desperate for the affection of an uncaring Denethor is almost the exact opposite of how I see them. They each want the other’s affection, but their conversations are dominated by Denethor’s resentment of Faramir’s supposed indifference. It’s Denethor who is obsessed with Faramir’s lack of devotion, and Faramir who refuses to give way unless directly ordered.
It’s a terrible, messy situation between a father and son who do, in fact, love each other, but are at such cross-purposes and under such strain that it’s not clear to either of them until both are on the point of death. And it’s really unfortunate, imo, that it’s so often presented as something less profoundly tragic than that.
tags:
#two thirds of my middle earth feelings are just faramir and denethor feelings tbh #i'm def 'lol no' at the idea that faramir was actually wrong in what he did #but the dynamic revolves /so much/ around denethor's conviction that faramir doesn't really love him #like ... it feels dismissive to say that faramir hurt his feelings but also it's clear that he /is/ very deeply hurt #and that pervades the 'if only boromir' element #while faramir is obviously also hurt but i feel that he's less obsessed with it #until the realization that denethor would rather he were dead than boromir #that's why it's so devastating! #(i also have always felt that boromir was something of a buffer between them that held the family together #and kept denethor and faramir from being at painful odds all the time #and with his death it's just this tragic disaster)
no subject
on 2019-07-27 02:39 pm (UTC)Okay, I've had my coffee this morning. Forgive me if I word-vomit all over your post.
I have wonder if Denethor saw too much of himself in Faramir. They were very alike, and Denethor's primary fear was the loss of Gondor. He puts so much of his faith in Boromir, who "delighted chiefly in arms." And so I have to wonder if this is part of the root of his despair, that he put his faith in the might of Gondor, which would never be enough against Sauron. And in putting that faith in might, he despaired of his own limits, saw the same limits in Faramir, and was highly ambivalent about both.
Also, Tolkien does a lot of pairing characters to illustrate his message by comparing and contrasting them. One of the natural comparisons is Gandalf and Denethor - the difference between them highlighted in their conversation about what they are responsible for: Denethor for Gondor, but Gandalf Gondor but all other realms as well.
Another natural comparison is between Denethor and Theoden - both leaders of realms of Men who lose their eldest and have to then choose who to place their trust in. In comparison to Theoden, Denethor is highlighted as very concerned about what is his. His is the care of Gondor, and very properly so. His are his sons, and very properly so. But his thinking tends to end there. The well-being of others outside his concerns have minimal impact on him. He has to think of Gondor, but he only thinks of Gondor. Boromir is very much like Denethor in this way. He feels the responsibility for his people very acutely, and properly so, but it also limits his thinking. Faramir feels the responsibility acutely as well, but it does not limit his thinking. He can prioritize other peoples' needs over that of Gondor.
It seems that Tolkien often uses these kinds of juxtapositions to highlight dangers, those things that are the lures to a downfall. In Denethor's case, he fell to despair. It seems that the root of his despair was that tipping point between responsibility and jealousy. This is "mine to take care of" versus "this is mine." One mindset promotes a broader view of that responsibility, the other enshrines preservation over everything else. If it cannot be preserved, then all there is left is despair.
no subject
on 2019-09-14 05:50 pm (UTC)It really is tragic—arguably, he replicates the Ecthelion-Aragorn-Denethor tension as he saw it, but it ends up far worse than the original. And it's Faramir whom he casts as himself. And I def feel that despair is his ultimate moral failing, though it's not intrinsic to him but built on other failings, like his possessiveness and his ultimate desire being the preservation of Gondor as it always has been, rather than changed (even for the better). It's a very Elvish fault, in its way, and equally doomed.