paperdoll picspam/plotbunnies

[anghraine]

So I was super depressed, and decided to comfort myself by ... posting a ton of paper dolls, 'cause I like them.

I don't ever really grow bored of the princess dollmaker, so I decided to use that one to make Disney Princess versions of the Pride and Prejudice ladies! According to me!

Princess Jane



Princess Elizabeth



Princess Mary



(Word to the wise: it's very difficult to make someone "plain" in something designed to make Disney princesses.)

Princess Kitty



Princess Lydia



Princess Charlotte



I'm going to assume she's the daughter of a minor prince from ... Lucasia, or something, not any relation to the Bennet!princesses.

Then I found one where I could dolls that actually approximate my mental images of the real characters, c. 1790-something. Though "approximate" means "approximate" here.

Jane Bennet



Elizabeth Bennet



Mary Bennet



Catherine "Kitty" Bennet



I figured this counted as an "irritable" expression.

Lydia Bennet



Yes, Elizabeth and Lydia (and Mary!) have lighter hair than Jane. Because this is my headcanon and not the collective consciousness of Austen fandom. La! (to quote the less than quotable Lydia.)

And speaking of rough approximations:

Catherine Darcy



Lucyverse: Obi-Wan doesn't follow Padmé, Anakin never attacks her, she dies anyway and the girls grow up in Bast Castle:

Lady Lucy



Of all the Lucy dolls, this is probably the one that looks most like Lucy-in-my-head.

Lady Leia



Lucyverse: without any gender preference, which twin goes where is about even odds. It goes the other way.

Leia Skywalker



Princess Lucy



Carrie Fisher is right. That hairdo doesn't look good on anyone.

No-particular-verse: the Skywalkers are all ladies (originally it was just going to be they're-all-genderswapped, but Leia as not-a-girl makes me cry inside)

Luka Skywalker



Princess Leia



Anaiya Skywalker/Lady Vader



ATLA!Star Wars fusion funtiemz! (I used the four elements dolls, which only come in "girl," so it's a femmeslash extravaganza)

ATLA!girl!Obi-Wan, a respected Air Nomad Jedi Master...



who against her own better judgment, ends up training the Avatar--

ATLA!girl!Anakin, a young firebender and slave of the Hutts (a vicious earthbending criminal ring thing). Chosen One = Avatar gone horribly, horribly wrong.



Though born a slave in the Earth Kingdom, her mother came from the Fire Nation and raised her to prize passion and attachment even in their horrific circumstances, and to use them to fuel her firebending. At nine, she was freed, taken to the Western Air Temple, and brought up as an airbender by Obi-Wan. It was difficult enough, and to make matters worse, she became fiercely attached to

ATLA!Padmé, a Water Tribe chieftainess



Eventually they gave into their feelings, married, and ... idk, somehow, ATLA!Padmé become pregnant with twins. After ATLA!Anakin turned to evil and swore herself to the service of the wicked Fire Lord, who with her able assistance proceeded to take over the rest of the world. ATLA!Padmé died giving birth to

ATLA!girl!Luke



Who was brought up on a poor farm in the Earth Kingdom, far from benders of any kind (and pretty far from people of any kind, too). There she met a creepy old hermit lady, none other than Obi-Wan herself, and found a message from

ATLA!Leia



After their escape, they joined up with the rebellion against the Empire of Flames, and ATLA!Luke ended up taking out the Fire Lord's fortress. Buuut, pursued by ATLA!Vader, mistress of all four elements, she'd have been killed if not for the timely interference of a friend she'd nearly given up hope on--

ATLA!girl!Han, an Earth Kingdom pirate



...with no bending abilities whatsoever, just so much badassery that she manages to keep up with them anyway. She's accompanied everywhere she goes by ATLA!Chewbacca, a bearpanther.

They fight crime!

Comments

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Oh, thanks for the access! I remember running across your lj on my elizabeth_hoot account, and being all "hm, maybe it's just locked" but sadfacing that there was no meta to catch up on. Now there is! :D :D :D

I do think zen!Luke is very much a response to how closely he was walking his father's path in ESB -- where he's consciously trying to follow the hero-father but he's unconsciously following Vader, as well. (Relevant creepy vision is relevant.) His serenity in ROTJ is very clearly deliberate and conscious, not temperamental. It's like he's trying to be the anti-Vader but that only leads to becoming more like him, in some ways.

I like the zen badassery, sure, but I sort of have the feeling that it mayn't be the healthiest thing for him. Post-ROTJ, I think Leia's arc would be, as you say, reaching a place where she can own her heritage, but I think Luke's would be ... finding a place between not becoming a second Darth Vader, as he nearly did, or denying most of his own nature.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Yeah, my LJ is locked, and is also moribund since Dreamwidth happened and especially since the string of Issues that LJ has had (I'm almost to the point of deleting all my posts on LJ, really.) But anyway, enjoy the meta--- I look forward to any thoughts you might have! :)

Yes to all of the Luke thoughts, especially about that balance: owning all of who he is, good and bad. (I had something in mind about Padme as almost the elephant in the room, conceptually, for both twins, in different ways--- Vader/Anakin is such a huge legacy on so many levels, but they also have to come to terms with Padme? And not make various of her mistakes in an effort to avoid Anakin's? Because Padme had that depersonalized/selfless passivity thing going on--- there are levels at which she would have made almost a better follower-of-the-Jedi-Order than Anakin did; someone somewhere, probably either you or irnan said something about how Padme lives for her husband and her persona as a "selfless pacifist politician" and that would almost fit better with the culture of the Jedi Order than Anakin did, for all he's the one who's strong in the Force.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

I'm kind of a horrible commenter, but if I do have thoughts, I'll only be too happy to share them.

(I went on a meta binge a few days ago, and for the record, I'll say that your harem plotbunny was the only Vader/anyone that didn't make me want to pull my hair out. Just about everyone seems to assume that Anakin circa Vader would casually exploit women and/or have strings of indifferent-acquaintances-with-benefits, which just makes no sense for his character. Of course, some of them were outraged that he ended up in love and committed to the twins' mother in canon, so yeah. Anyway, it was cool to see a version of Anakin who wasn't exploitative or derailed but still had other relationships, even if it's not how I personally see him.)

I think Padmé would become a massive elephant in the room, yes. And I think it'd loom all the larger because -- okay, both Obi-Wan's last word to Anakin in ANH and Yoda's to Obi-Wan's in ROTS imply that Jedi are at least potentially immortal. While I think Luke and especially Leia have plenty to work through re: Anakin, they can deal with him personally. But there's no ghost!Padmé to scream at. They can never deal with Padmé herself, just memories and ideas and interpretations.

So I can definitely see her casting this shadow that's very difficult to live under, where they don't even know what her mistakes were at first, let alone how to avoid them, but once they hear the story they can sort of guess at their general shape. (I think it's interesting that, in a way, the twins have to avoid the same mistake in both parents -- getting consumed and broken by their public personas, or by the conflict between persona and person. Depersonalizing, as you say. And I think we do see in ESB and ROTJ that it's a real danger for them, something they're prone to doing. And veering to far away from one parent's mistake seems to lead right into the other's.)

Oh, I think Padmé would make a model Jedi, generally. That little bit of recklessness would have been trained out of her quite young and the rest would work fairly well. And I think it'd be terribly interesting.

There's one Jedi!Padmé story, but what I saw of it seemed pretty off-kilter -- I'd like to see Jedi!Padmé who devotes herself to the Order in much the same way canon!Padmé does to politics (and probably even using the same skillset), see different conflicts w/ whatever her relationship with Anakin was, one where it's really about her.

I think she would fit the culture better by temperament -- like Obi-Wan, who I think she very much resembles in basic disposition -- and that could be rather alarming. I'd like to see her as a bit harsher-edged, more dangerous, faintly creepy, without being Darth Amidala at all. (Er, tangent. But for some reason I always assumed Luke and Leia's mother was a Jedi -- which is probably obvious from Revenge -- and even later thought Jedi!Padmé could be awesome.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

No problem re: commenting (though if you want to add your thoughts on anything locked in a PM, rather than as comments... I can be kind of wanky about privacy.)

Re: Vader/anyone... my headcanon doesn't even bother with internal consistency, because on the one hand I can totally see Anakin as Padmesexual and swearing off everything forever as of the end of RotS (or variations on the theme, whether or not he's crippled-and-suited). On the other, I can also kind of see him going in for even downright absurd amounts of casual sex as a combination of some/any/all of the following headwarps:

1) Anger at Padme and specifically choosing, ah, "playmates" who are very obviously turned on by the whole Sithlord thing, i.e., "See! This isn't horrible! Some people like this side of me just fine!"

2) Contrariwise, also having a lot of self-loathing issues, possibly even in concert with 1), where he's picking women who like him for qualities that he half-despises in himself, and also feeling that he's not worthy of an actual relationship or at least that (um, sadly, not without cause) he's not competent to have one--- that all he's capable of is these kinds of casual fucks

3) A weird sort of loyalty to Padme, because the sex and his partners in it don't mean anything to him like she did and in his head that's a sort of fidelity

4) Leftover psychosexual warps from growing up as a slave of the Hutts i.e. the people who brought gold bikinis and slave dancers to the GFFA and then promptly handed over to the Jedi and their practice of emotional detachment (which doesn't preclude sex). So he's in a weird place about what sexuality actually means even before the whole "Sithlord" thing comes into it.

5)Speaking of Sithlords, Palpatine and his dealings with him could also be part of this: "Yeah, I'm totally over Padme, that's not a button you can push anymore, la la la la".

(Also I see the combination of 1), 2), and 4) but especially 1) and 4) as leading him to be... less unilaterally exploitative of his partners and more "use me to use you" where he's not attaching but he's perfectly happy to let his partners work out their own fantasies--- that he's letting himself be used as much as he is doing the using, again, in a way that goes a lot with what he probably saw of sex growing up as a slave and then the Jedi's whole thing of, "Sex = just fine, love = WILL TURN YOU DARK OH NOES" mess in his head.)

Tl;dr: I think too much about Anakin Skywalker's sex life.

And actually, the idea about Anakin not having a relationship with Padme (which as you say some folks would have preferred) dovetails SO WELL with Jedi!Padme, because their relationship could go like:

Anakin and Padme: [meet when they are assigned on a mission, possibly his first as a full Knight]

Anakin: [falls instantly in love much like canon but without the creepiness of, you know, being NINE TO HER FOURTEEN AT THE TIME]

Padme: No, no, no, honey, we're Jedi, we don't do that. However, maybe if we have sex you'll get it out of your system not that this opinion on my part has anything to do with the fact that you're really cute.

Anakin and Padme: [have sex]

Anakin: [most emphatically DOESN'T get it out of his system]

Padme: Oh, dear.

[Optional: Lather, rinse, repeat the cycle of sex-oh,dear a few times, with a backdrop of how the Clone Wars is messing with both their heads and Anakin is getting clingier and Padme is getting more detached. Then:]

Anakin and Padme: [have sex again]

Ten months later:

Padme: Oh, by the way, Anakin, I gave birth to your children while we were on opposite sides of the galaxy fighting a war. But don't worry, I gave them to the Temple and I didn't tell anyone that we've actually been doing this fairly often, so no harm done. Off to go hack up Separatist droids again, bye now!

Anakin: [flails]

Anakin: [pours his heart out to his great and good friend Chancellor Palpatine]

Palpatine: [thinking] This could not have played into my hands any better if the Jedi had GIFT-WRAPPED HIM FOR ME. [aloud, to Anakin]: Good heavens, what a dreadful betrayal, but then again that does sound like the Jedi's usual sort of thing. [Insert more in this vein, leading up to;] You know, it just so happens that I'm a Sithlord; Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies attachments; go sack the Jedi Temple with my blessing and find your children and raise them in safety, and, um, I'm sure Padme will come around. [Possibly with bonus implications of general treachery on the Jedi's part as well a la canon if "Go save your children" doesn't seem to be working out]

Anakin: [sacks the Jedi Temple; doesn't find his children]

Padme: [distinctly fails to come around, possibly to the tune of being the one to dismember Anakin, with or without Obi-wan's help]

Padme and Obi-wan: [hide the twins, completely failing to recognize that this is part of the problem as opposed to anything like a solution]

Anakin: [becomes Darth Vader]

The OT: [happens as before except that now it potentially makes sense that Leia remembers her mother because Padme might have been around for a while and possibly gone out with a bang fighting for the Rebellion or something]

So basically I agree completely with you about Jedi!Padme, even though I phrased it all For Great LULZ, but, yeah, definitely an Obi-wan type of Jedi, and maybe even primarily a diplomat (which could be why she and Anakin get sent on missions together, because she's supposed to do the talking and he's supposed to hack things up if that doesn't work, or he can hack things up and then she can do the talking after he's softened up the other side a bit).

And I have nothing to say about your read on the twins' issues with Padme, because you have said it all perfectly! (Considering the length of this comment, that is probably not a bad thing, lol.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Oh crap, I didn't even pay attention to locking. I will confine commentary to the relevant threads in the future!

For me, canon!Anakin is most likely Padmésexual, but not in any sense of choosing it. Just that she's the only person he's actually attracted to, and that's part of the reason he's so awkward and bewildered, and unable to shake his childish crush through ten years of adolescence without ever seeing her.

(Then again, I thought the movies--well, the prequels--gave every indication that Jedi were supposed to be celibate, and that's what Obi-Wan is flailing about Anakin's dreams and why Anakin and/or Padmé never consider having an affair. So maybe I just have ace goggles.)

(Though, then again, there seems to be a weird consensus that Leia and Padmé are completely inexperienced, which I never saw at all. I've assumed Padmé had a number of friendly lovers and Leia both friendly and unfriendly ones. Unfortunately including Tarkin.)

The thing that makes the casual relationships odd to me is that, as far as I can tell, Anakin is unlikely to have a casual relationship with his furniture, much less other people. It's all eternal devotion or murderous hatred or some extremely odd combination of both.

So yeah, I can see not!Padmésexual Anakin trying out casual relationships for the reasons you give, but I think he'd just kind of fail epically because he doesn't do casual. At least not without a trail of corpses behind him. With your other scenario, it was with people he did care about intensely, so it made a lot more sense than the usual, 'he's a villain, so obviously ...'

(Hm. Thinking about it, Padmésexual!Anakin is probably a lot more depressing. Not the forever-a-widower thing, but that he probably wouldn't have a relationship of any kind with anyone except Palpatine for 20-odd years.)

I do think your Jedi!Padmé thing makes sense! And would honestly fit with the OT a bit better than canon (*nitpick*). And also that scenario provides a rather more coherent start of darkness for him. Also, I am totally onboard with the idea of Jedi!Padmé as a badass Rebellion fighter -- like, she shouldn't be horrible, just messed-up, and Leia could have good reason to remember her fondly. And hey, this way the twins COULD scream at her ghost.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

No problem, and thanks! (As I say, I can be wanky about privacy, so wanted to warn you ahead of time.)

That is exactly why I say Padmesexual, rather than that she was his One True Love: it's no more a choice than any other orientation.

Although... I've been very much swayed by that one fic of irnan's (who else?) where she has Anakin having decided, quite rationally, that he needs to get some *ahem* experience before coming to Padme's bed, and that there was also a "lurking variable" of him just plain being lonely and needing closeness with someone. (Which also goes into my Vader-has-casual-sex paradigm.)

The ace goggles honestly make more sense for the Jedi, but apparently Lucas has said somewhere that the Jedi can get laid--- just not, you know, form emotional commitments to their partners. Which, this is me, facepalming forever, and adding another one to the list of "ways the PT!Jedi are messed up".

Okay, I was going to have a thorough response of all my agreement that Leia and Padme are both NOT blushing virgins, and then: "Unfortunately including Tarkin" and OKAY YOU JUST BROKE MY BRAIN OMG BRB SQUICKING FOREVER and also STARING IN HORRIFIED FASCINATION.

AHAHAHAH, "Anakin is unlikely to have a casual relationship with his furniture", well, yes, THIS. Though I can see it as a sort of... almost self-harming behavior, frankly, where he's interacting-without-attachment as a way of punishing himself for the mess he made of his relationship with Padme (see previous on "I am not worthy of the attachments I crave"). Also, I don't know whether to LOL or to weep or BOTH at At least not without a trail of corpses behind him. Because that is so very painful and so very ANAKIN.

So much THIS on how depressing Padmesexual!Anakin is, in terms of the whole, "no one but Sidious for twenty years". (Which makes it all that much more powerful that he does finally off Sidious on his son's behalf.) (There is also a part of me that thinks that he didn't so much stay affiliated with the Dark Side because he believed in it, but because he was attached to Sidious and that was how Sidious rolled.)

Oh, yay! I'm glad my version of Jedi!Padme works! And, yeah, better fit with canon, indeed. And also, so much yes to: she shouldn't be horrible, just messed-up, and Leia could have good reason to remember her fondly. And hey, this way the twins COULD scream at her ghost.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Yeah, I read his comment about that, but as you probably know, I'm quite happy to go all death of the author. Especially with one as, ummm, flexible as George.

Ahh, I see re: irnan's stories. Yeah, I remember that, though my fannish goggles coincide a bit more with fialleril's in this case. (Unsurprisingly.)

Okay, about Tarkin, it's a little involved. I'm not shipping them as, like, an actual I-want-them-together couple, but I couldn't help seeing it when I was rewatching ANH. See, I thought it was sort of funny that Leia acts as if she's just on a pleasure cruise and Tarkin is some icky acquaintance who happens to be on the same ship. Then he starts stroking her cheek and talking about how much it hurts him to do this and suddenly "icky acquaintance" with Leia sneering about recognizing his smell was a lot nastier. And then when it turns out she lied, Anakin's going "lol I told you so NANNER NANNER" but Tarkin actually seems hurt (idek!) and is all "How could you do this, Leia? HOW?" as if his lover's been cheating on him rather than ... y'know, reality.

So it does seem to me that he has some sort of sexual interest in her. I expect he's been making creepy overtures of some sort for awhile -- probably (since he doesn't seem to have known she's a spy but her idealism is obvious) suggesting that he'd help/hinder her politically. So I imagine either she rejected him (and he's exulting in his power over her now) or she didn't, presumably considering it worth it in her capacity as a spy. If she's going to be pushed into a creepy dubcon relationship, she might as well Mata Hari it up. Or something.

I lean towards the latter mostly because Tarkin, after committing genocide against her entire planet, still seems completely shocked by her deception. Vader's contemptuous response (to him) and respect (for Leia) would then be pretty loaded too. And since Leia's immediate reaction, upon waking up to find a stormtrooper in her cell, is this, I don't find it remotely difficult to believe her perfectly capable of using sex as a weapon. (Which could also factor into her romantic interactions with Luke and Han.)

So, yeah, that. (I do think she'd have had healthy sexual relationships before this point, probably on Alderaan before she had to survive the heart of the Empire.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Hey, I'm all death-of-the-author with regard to the Nature of the Dark Side, in ways we've discussed before, so I am totally cool with that!

I also love your assessment of Tarkin/Leia, and especially what it means in terms of Vader's reactions--- that he, as you say, is contemptuous of Tarkin and respectful of Leia in that scenario just makes me like Vader even more than I already do. Though I had always read Tarkin's attitude toward Leia as merely nastily sexually-charged intimidating social banter, that he was simply using sexual innuendo like he was flirting with her at a party while there are stormtroopers with guns and a freaking Sithlord helping him to keep her prisoner on a humongous battlestation that he's planning to use to blow up people who matter to her. But yours is much deeper and more complex and so more interesting!

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Oh, thanks. Yes, Vader's reaction to that is -- probably one of his least reprehensible moments? And I think all the more because, initially, Leia's insult is pretty damn complimentary and he's the one who doesn't show any respect, so it does seem to be context-specific here.

And I think there's a hint of his perspective in the Alderaan scene too, because he seems to have checked out entirely and the only thing he does the whole scene is yank her away from Tarkin and hold her there. Also, there's that awful moment when she backs into Vader, seems to consider moving away, towards Tarkin, and then obviously decides Vader is the more preferable of the two.

Initially, I did tend to read his behaviour that way -- it's really when I got to his shock at her betrayal that I went "...um." Now I like to imagine that he's the reason Leia knew about the Death Star plans at all, which enabled the Rebellion to intercept them, and part of the reason he's so intent on her death is so she doesn't talk. (I'm also really interested in exploring how it affected her, idk, romance/sex arc -- from turning on ~seductive mode~ at a quarter-second's notice in ANH, to her discomfort with anything more aggressive than Luke's lie-back-and-think-of-the-Order approach to being kissed, to her easy confidence in ROTJ.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

YES THIS to your first two paragraphs, but then, we know all about all my love for Anakin-Vader.

I... still kind of tend to read Tarkin's reaction as more "generic dudely shock that a mere woman had that kind of brass under her belt" because dudes like him don't realize that brass gonads come in internal as well as external configurations, lol. But, again, your version is just so much more complex and therefore interesting! And AHAHAHAHAHAHHA about Mata Hari!Leia and Tarkin wanting her dead to shut her up. (And also I kind of like the idea of Vader being especially alert to and aware of other people's Sekrit Sex Lives, given, well, Padme. He may not be (willing to admit he is) Anakin Skywalker anymore, but, man, he knows how that particular weakness works.) (And also. Daala. I am interested in how Tarkin's relationship there would tie in.)

(And also. I just reread Revenge, I love it more than ever, and for some reason, this time I am really just All About Shmi and her matter-of-fact maternal responses to Vader's Sithliness. Not that I didn't love that last time, mind you, but this time it was really huge for me. And also Vader getting some relief from pain by using the Living Force was kind of awesome. And, well, your!Anakin, but I even like canon!Anakin, so. But the "Daddy's going to make the galaxy safe for you" moment was like SO MANY KINDS OF FLAIL this time out, I just wanted to cry and pet the poor boy.)

appropriate random icon is appropriate!

[anghraine]

Yeah, I can definitely see it as just Tarkin being an ass -- I suspect it depends on how you read his tone, because to me he sounds almost as if his feelings are hurt which is just bizarre. Either way he's really squicky and Leia is a total badass, though.

And yeah, Mata Hari!Leia is pretty much made of steel-coated steel. (Also it'd put the whole slave bikini thing, and its lack of ramifications, in a slightly different light if it's not altogether new.)

Oh, I do rather like the idea that Vader picks up on people's supposedly super-secret shenanigans without really knowing why -- and, being Vader, is undoubtedly prepared to use them to his advantage. Even if that advantage is just sneering at him.

Hmm, Daala is of course EU, but I think it could work. I don't get the impression that fidelity is exactly his thing, and I tend to think his choice of mistresses would be at least partly calculating. I don't doubt that Daala is *useful* to him in the military, and I think whoever he chose while he's being a politician on Imperial Center would likely be someone who he could reasonably expect to be a, idk, credit to him in that regard. Leia's probably the last in a line of brilliant and extremely attractive politicians. (Just the only one who was brilliant in a spy-for-the-enemy kind of way.)

Re: appropriate random icon is appropriate!

[sathari]

I have nothing useful to say in response to this other than "So. Much. Yes."

And also that I kind of want the Vader-POV where he is so totally IN DENIAL that the reason he is oh-so-very aware of other people's clandestine/illicit relationships is, well, ANAKIN. (In such a way that it is pathetically obvious to the audience that it is the fact that he is still ANAKIN in there at some level. And also that part of the reason he's not admitting that is because HE MISSES PADME. LOL)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Oh, thanks about Revenge! I'm glad you still like Shmi. She was really the one that had the least amount to do w/ canon -- I mean, there are ties to canon, but she ended up more my own character than anything else and I felt pretty free to do whatever with her. But I could definitely see her being 'sweetie, think about your choices...' and it worked for the story, so.

I think the pain thing was influenced by SOTE, where he can't permanently heal himself w/ the Dark Side because he stops hating everything once he's no longer in constant agonizing pain. I didn't go there (he has plenty of other reasons to hate everything!), but I did like the idea of the Dark Side/agonizing pain being sort of linked. If only because he doesn't know *how* to heal with the Dark Side if it's even possible and isn't about to start experimenting on himself and Luke is corrupting (anti-corrupting?) him anyway, so yay Living Force. And that doesn't mess with his head, either, so it's pretty win-win.

Oh, thanks about my Anakin. I remember when I was writing, I was telling my betas 'okay, my Vader is SUCH A WOOBIE.' But he is!

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Oh, I do indeed love your Shmi! And she is such a cipher in canon that really, IMO, almost anything goes and anything serves as an effective commentary on/conversation with canon.

Yeah, the whole interaction of Vader's chronic pain issues with his Sithliness has so many possible iterations, and all of them are fascinating.

Oh, man, as far as I'm concerned, canon!Anakin is a woobie, and having that come out is just permitting the character to have his natural larger-than-life three dimensions, rather than using a Villain Shoehorn on him! (Yes, he's a stupendous badass; but the bare bald facts of his character arc speak to someone who is much more complicated, and that makes him MORE of a badass, not less. Mere sadistic probable-sociopaths like Tarkin are just sleazy and icky; Vader has a soul and that's the thing powering his awesomeness.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Thinking about Woobieness, because I hadn't really:

Canon!Anakin is totally a woobie, but there's - I mean, while Anakin's life does suck on a lot of levels, a lot of it is a sort of Fridge Logic woobieness that hits you as you start to think that, say, he was born into slavery and sold to Watto and Qui-Gon won him and handed him over to Obi-Wan and he gave himself over to Palpatine, but he was never really free for one moment in his entire life. But at the same time that feels like a slightly...free take on the text that I'm not sure was really intended (not that that stops me, given that I'm pretty sure even Carrie Fisher didn't envision Mata Hari!Leia :P).

Revenge!Anakin's woobieness is a bit more explicit and pushed a lot harder, I think -- he doesn't commit most of Anakin's worst acts, too, because I was trying for a more, mm, straightforward escalation into villainy. And I didn't intend it, but now that I think of it, his circumstances are, if possible, even worse than canon!Anakin's (with a more explicitly culpable Obi-Wan and even Yoda). So I think where Anakin reads as a bit of a Jerkass Woobie, Revenge's pre-Vader Anakin is just a classic Woobie. And I took about as sympathetic a line with Vader as I could, too. Well, maybe it could have been more (I enjoyed him a bit too much sometimes :P) but still. I actually worried about that a lot -- that he was too sympathetic to begin with to make such a slow redemption really rewarding. Especially since he's only half there at this point.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

ack, I meant to agree about Vader's awesomeness being at least partly driven by his not being a soulless monster like Tarkin and Palpatine, or merely amusingly 100% evil like every other Imperial ever. I think this is what some of the fanboys fail to get when they're complaining about him actually loving his wife or, in ye olde days of fandom, loving his son - that's what makes his villainy stand out so much. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wrote about this at some point.

*searches* Oh right, here. Sorta.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Yes THIS! He's a fully realized human being, and he was a genuinely good, heroic person at one point. That is what makes him awesome. And so much this on people Failing To Get why that is awesome, not just with Vader but with similar characters--- they are awesome because they are not one-dimensional and they have a developmental arc andandand.

And I love that post of yours!

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Thanks! <3

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Hmm... I think the Fridge-Logic-y-ness of canon!Anakin's woobieness and the free-take-on-the-text-ness of it come from the same place, namely that George Lucas introduced some massive human rights violations and psychological trauma issues for pre-Vader Anakin without really wrangling what came with them. So it wouldn't be a free reading of text if the import of the bare bones we're given was addressed as opposed to more or less bare-bulbed (as opposed to lampshaded).

And I just love Revenge-verse Anakin, who actually seems to have his shit more together than canon!Anakin does, possibly because he is being written by someone who pays attention to the importance of the words coming out of characters' mouths and how they fit into the story being told. Revenge!Anakin (and Vader thereafter) actually come/s across as having more agency and being more badass (in the way that I think Lucas thinks he made them in canon) in many ways, though still tragic and sympathetic as regards the really horrible contexts in which he/they exercise/s that agency. Lucas never really shows us cunning-warrior!Anakin, and you do. Nuff said as regards any possibility of "excessive" woobieness. (That said, my woobiemeter is permanently skewed, as I like my Brilliant Badass Woobies, please and thank you.)

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[anghraine]

Yeah, I tend to agree -- we end up addressing it in vaguely resistant ways only because it isn't addressed, at all.

Hey, thanks about Revenge!Anakin -- he definitely is more together. I wouldn't say less damaged, exactly, but he deals a bit better with it. In fact, I think there's an element of Luke-and-Leia-esque 'angst? what angst?' with a lot of his early trauma until he finally just cracks. And even Vader has a ludicrous level of denial about EVERYTHING.

possibly because he is being written by someone who pays attention to the importance of the words coming out of characters' mouths

Aw, thanks. (And I might have laughed aloud, because, well. <3)

I did want Revenge!Anakin to have that kind of agency you talk about -- a kind of active choice about how he conducts his life, even if under extraordinary pressures and in horrible circumstances. And I definitely wanted to play up the cunning warrior thing, because it's one of my favourite ideas -- especially as it's reflected in the twins, and I think we do see it in Vader himself. So I tried to maintain Vader's cunning but link it with his Anakin self, as well.

I like my Brilliant Badass Woobies, please and thank you.

Heh, me too! And Revenge was total self-indulgent wish-fulfilment, so there's that.

Re: I expect this will be a long reply

[sathari]

Oh, so late getting to this.... Mea culpa!

Anyway:

You're right: the resistance almost comes from the lack of handling in canon; any handling ends up being resistant on the one hand, but on the other, the lack of its being handled also makes it a necessary part of the conversation that the fic his having with the source.

And YEAH on Vaderkin's denial--- in either iteration of self, he just buries things until they're too much to be buried.

And oh, I'm glad I made you laugh--- but it's so true, because while I respect what Lucas did in terms of making movies a visual medium, the plots and people of the PT in particular would have benefitted from a bit more in the way of a script.

...you know, there is practically a perfect correlation between "fic I love" and "fic the author considers wish-fulfillment". Really, practically every time I see labels like "idfic" or "self-indulgence" or "wish-fulfillment" on a fic, it generally ends up taking me to my happy place right along with the author. So bring on the wish-fulfillment!

Help, I'm commenting and I can't shut up!

[sathari]

More thoughts on Anakin and Padme's relationship:

On the one hand, I can kind of see the fannish reaction of "Anakin should not have had a relationship with his children's mother" for... well, precisely what you brought up with the "How is that possible?/ANAKIN YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS ALREADY" business in ESB, because Anakin not knowing about his kids' existence at that point makes more sense if he and their mother weren't overly close back-when. ON THE OTHER HAND--- it has been book-of-the-movie canon since the ROTJ novelization that Luke and Leia's mother was Anakin's "dear wife"--- direct quote from his death scene, so the haters have had time to get used to the idea, and by time I mean "something like twenty years". Granted that Lucas Josses so much of not-his-stuff that the trope should really be named after him, but. The fact that Anakin didn't know could be put down to any number of things, including that he assumed his kids had died with Padme (which I think is supposed to be the retcon, maybe?).

Though it makes even more sense in the Jedi!Padme scenario I was nattering about, except that Padme doesn't tell him about the kids because she's going with the Jedi rule of detachment, Sidious turns him without that knowledge (maybe just a combination of "the Jedi have turned against the Senate they're supposed to be serving" with a side order of... IDK, some kind of implication that if the Jedi Order falls, so will Padme's reasons to objecting to having a relationship with Anakin and it will all be happy goodness? Or possibly Anakin knows about the kids but Sidious convinces him that they might not be his because, hey, the Jedi don't play attachment, hmm, she's awfully chummy with your old master isn't she?) and then of course Padme Does Not Approve and they fight, and then twenty-odd years later O HAI LUKE AND LEIA.

...man, there is so little not to like about Jedi!Padme. Although I like Arissa better, but then I like Revenge better than canon in so many ways anyway.

Re: Help, I'm commenting and I can't shut up!

[anghraine]

I honestly thought the people who were outraged that the future Darth Vader was, gasp, in love with his wife were... um, missing the point of his entire character arc. Though I don't think it was about character arcs so much as an epic badass beloved of dudebro fanboys the world over getting girl cooties on him.

Not that I'm cynical about fandom, or anything.

Anakin's 'how is this possible?' is pretty lulzy -- like, how can he not know how it is possible to have a child if he was, you know, fathering a child? But on rewatching, it's clear that he does know, because he mentions Luke by name earlier. And it's just as clear that he hasn't chosen to enlighten the Emperor on the subject, so I assumed he's just bluffing.

In light of the prequels, though, it actually makes more sense (lol, not a statement I find myself making very often). Since it was Palpatine who told him that his child died with Padmé, 'how is this possible?' becomes a perfectly reasonable response to Palpatine.

There really is very little not to enjoy about Jedi!Padmé. But thank you about Arissa! I did originally plan on making Padmé basically what Arissa turned out to be, but Padmé-as-not-Leia's-mother wasn't right. I am kind of tempted to do an OT-compliant Revenge AU, though. Hmm.

Re: Help, I'm commenting and I can't shut up!

[sathari]

...an epic badass beloved of dudebro fanboys the world over getting girl cooties on him.

I am so, so, so happy that I've missed this whole part of the fandom, really I am.

So much *grinning forever* about Anakin's working of Palpatine in ESB, because hello, that is our cunning warrior that we were promised in ANH! Squee!

Oooooh, an OT-compliant Revenge AU! *grabs popcorn*