response part five (heroic badasses)
Jan. 30th, 2012 10:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anghraineYes, these go on forever, and I went off on tangents at pretty much every opportunity. This, of course, is one of them -- the whole thing is my response to maybe one paragraph, and at that, rather tangentially related to it. It's a little shorter, though, since I'm now trying to separate these into vaguely cohesive units, though.
I’d argue even Superman and his ilk are really strong for their choices in the moments that don’t require anything more than a singular act of will.
Meh. They're strong-willed, I guess? but they're also ... physically strong? and that's a large part of their appeal, so...
This is something I see, a little bit, in - I see it with, in a weird sort of damning with faint praise way, I think you get it a lot with people who don't particular like a character, so I guess that could be my own little - I can't know for sure, but what I see a lot - there's a character, who is a popular character, who's generally regarded as a total badass, if only at a certain point in the character's arc. What you get a lot is people who - don't particular care for the character, and I think especially for the ... who are not impressed by the character or whatever, but in any case, where, I see it, I see people say that their strength is not in actually being badass because they're not badass at all, it's their purity of heart~ or whatever - trying to argue that they're not as cool as people think they are because all their coolness is in their power of ~heart~.
Like, I see people argue a lot that - Snape was totally right about Harry, he's completely mediocre, so you shouldn't argue that he is magically powerful because his power is in his Power of Friendship or his Power of Love and if you argue that he's quite gifted magically, you're taking away from that ... or something. I see it a lot with Luke, it's not that he's that strong in the Force, he's strong in ~heart~. And I mostly hear this from people who don't actually like them very much and don't want to - I mean, I can't know if Tricia actually likes Superman and his ilk, but I honestly tend to side-eye the 'they're not really strong except in HEART' argument. Even when they're like, 'they do have that strength, but their real strength is in soul.'
I don't know, I tend to be like - yes? I mean, you take someone like Harry Potter, clearly his principal advantage is that people like him and are willing to follow him, but you see a lot is, well, he's good at other things, that's not why you should like him. Look, if you like somebody because he can throw off the Imperius almost immediately at fifteen, then being told, 'oh, you shouldn't like him for that, you should like him for, he's such a good friend!' is, I don't know, I just find it - maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine. I get it a lot because I tend to like characters who are very ... noble, and very heroic, and I honestly don't like that many anti-heroes. And a lot of times the people I like that are heroic are also pretty awesome and I tend to like them for that too.
And I get it a lot, that you should love them for their heroic...ness, and not because - that I should like Luke for loving his father to the point that he's willing to risk being tortured to death, as opposed to liking him for being a total badass when he marches into Jabba's palace and is like 'hey, give me my friends back or I'll kill everything that moves.' [laughs] And I really tend to like that kind of character from both sides, the heroic and the total badass part.
None of the male heroes in Star Wars are particularly physically impressive.
What?
Luke and Anakin Skywalker don’t cut imposing physiques of He-Man proportions,
Okay, Luke is small and slender. Anakin is really tall - in the prequels he's, what? 6'1", 6'2"? I mean, still pretty tall, and he's - he's big. In fact, in AOTC, that's the first thing I noticed - that Anakin was towering over Obi-Wan! And it seemed odd, but then I was like 'oh, but Darth Vader is like a six and a half foot cyborg, of course he'd be tall!' And even the old Sebastian Shaw ghost was massively huge compared to the other two.
So ... actually, I think that is the most obvious visual discrepancy between Luke and Anakin, because they do - especially before - if you look at Luke before Mark Hamill's accident, and especially before ROTJ when his face starts changing dramatically - but earlier he looks quite a lot like - I think Hayden Christensen looks quite a lot like a young Mark Hamill, so visually, the biggest difference between them is that Luke is small, and Anakin is this big guy, and physically very strong, but [laughs] then it comes down to ~heart~ again.
nor do Obi-Wan Kenobi or Han Solo.
Han is also really tall. He also - standing next to Leia, he's like ... yeah. I mean, it's not like they're - they're not like Chewie-big, but they're quite - I would say they are quite physically impressive. A lot of the characters are, I'd say, even some of the women - I think Mon Mothma's pretty tall? It's just Luke and Leia who are like these tiny people. Well, Luke's not tiny, but he's definitely small. And of course they end up being the most ... ultimately strong-willed in a lot of ways.
The true hero of the Star Wars saga, Luke,
That's really odd. Usually the true hero is considered Anakin, especially from prequel trilogy fans. But that's interesting. I'd have to disagree, though. [laugh] I also think it's Anakin!
failed to heave his sunken X-wing from the swamp on Dagobah, only to be one-upped by a nine-hundred year old troll a third his size –
I really like that sentence.
a feat which has resulted in the catch-phrase “size matters not” becoming the mantra of the not-so-big on Earth.
I'm 5'4" so I don't know if I count as short? I guess I'm technically above average height, by like half an inch, but ... I can't say I ever took that as ... it never evoked any particular response in me.
Um, okay.
I could talk about the energy, power, and all the other scientific terms that quantify moving a mass from one point to another. Perhaps it took me longer or I expended more energy than two strapping men would have. None of that matters, as far as I see it, because the trunk got from point A to point B because I decided it needed to be done.
Hm. Um - I guess ... that's good? It's kind of bootstrappy to me, the 'nothing can stop you except yourself!' thing, when I think actually quite a few things can stop you, but probably not in SW which is what we're talking about here, so that probably doesn't much matter. Um...
It’s easy to get caught up watching the acrobatic athleticism of Jedi swooping in with their lightsabers blazing and get mesmerized by their Force skills, and then believe them to be the strong heroic characters of the saga. And while Star Wars has shown oppressive strength with things like violent arcs of Force lightning streaking from Palpatine’s fingers or laser beams so powerful they can pulverize worlds, it is the determination of the oppressed, the weaker beings like Gungans and Ewoks, that have just as big an impact on the course of galactic history as those wildly impressive displays of raw power.
Yeah, they do, and pretty much everybody hates them. [laugh] Not to put a damper on things!
You know, we do get caught up in it, because it's cool, it's fun, and - and yeah, ti's impressive, and a lot of time it is genuinely heroic. But I think that having that mix of - what you get a lot is a mix of physical, traditional strength, with moral fortitude is ... I guess where it's at. To say it's just moral fortitude is for me, it's not very convincing.
I’d argue even Superman and his ilk are really strong for their choices in the moments that don’t require anything more than a singular act of will.
Meh. They're strong-willed, I guess? but they're also ... physically strong? and that's a large part of their appeal, so...
This is something I see, a little bit, in - I see it with, in a weird sort of damning with faint praise way, I think you get it a lot with people who don't particular like a character, so I guess that could be my own little - I can't know for sure, but what I see a lot - there's a character, who is a popular character, who's generally regarded as a total badass, if only at a certain point in the character's arc. What you get a lot is people who - don't particular care for the character, and I think especially for the ... who are not impressed by the character or whatever, but in any case, where, I see it, I see people say that their strength is not in actually being badass because they're not badass at all, it's their purity of heart~ or whatever - trying to argue that they're not as cool as people think they are because all their coolness is in their power of ~heart~.
Like, I see people argue a lot that - Snape was totally right about Harry, he's completely mediocre, so you shouldn't argue that he is magically powerful because his power is in his Power of Friendship or his Power of Love and if you argue that he's quite gifted magically, you're taking away from that ... or something. I see it a lot with Luke, it's not that he's that strong in the Force, he's strong in ~heart~. And I mostly hear this from people who don't actually like them very much and don't want to - I mean, I can't know if Tricia actually likes Superman and his ilk, but I honestly tend to side-eye the 'they're not really strong except in HEART' argument. Even when they're like, 'they do have that strength, but their real strength is in soul.'
I don't know, I tend to be like - yes? I mean, you take someone like Harry Potter, clearly his principal advantage is that people like him and are willing to follow him, but you see a lot is, well, he's good at other things, that's not why you should like him. Look, if you like somebody because he can throw off the Imperius almost immediately at fifteen, then being told, 'oh, you shouldn't like him for that, you should like him for, he's such a good friend!' is, I don't know, I just find it - maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine. I get it a lot because I tend to like characters who are very ... noble, and very heroic, and I honestly don't like that many anti-heroes. And a lot of times the people I like that are heroic are also pretty awesome and I tend to like them for that too.
And I get it a lot, that you should love them for their heroic...ness, and not because - that I should like Luke for loving his father to the point that he's willing to risk being tortured to death, as opposed to liking him for being a total badass when he marches into Jabba's palace and is like 'hey, give me my friends back or I'll kill everything that moves.' [laughs] And I really tend to like that kind of character from both sides, the heroic and the total badass part.
None of the male heroes in Star Wars are particularly physically impressive.
What?
Luke and Anakin Skywalker don’t cut imposing physiques of He-Man proportions,
Okay, Luke is small and slender. Anakin is really tall - in the prequels he's, what? 6'1", 6'2"? I mean, still pretty tall, and he's - he's big. In fact, in AOTC, that's the first thing I noticed - that Anakin was towering over Obi-Wan! And it seemed odd, but then I was like 'oh, but Darth Vader is like a six and a half foot cyborg, of course he'd be tall!' And even the old Sebastian Shaw ghost was massively huge compared to the other two.
So ... actually, I think that is the most obvious visual discrepancy between Luke and Anakin, because they do - especially before - if you look at Luke before Mark Hamill's accident, and especially before ROTJ when his face starts changing dramatically - but earlier he looks quite a lot like - I think Hayden Christensen looks quite a lot like a young Mark Hamill, so visually, the biggest difference between them is that Luke is small, and Anakin is this big guy, and physically very strong, but [laughs] then it comes down to ~heart~ again.
nor do Obi-Wan Kenobi or Han Solo.
Han is also really tall. He also - standing next to Leia, he's like ... yeah. I mean, it's not like they're - they're not like Chewie-big, but they're quite - I would say they are quite physically impressive. A lot of the characters are, I'd say, even some of the women - I think Mon Mothma's pretty tall? It's just Luke and Leia who are like these tiny people. Well, Luke's not tiny, but he's definitely small. And of course they end up being the most ... ultimately strong-willed in a lot of ways.
The true hero of the Star Wars saga, Luke,
That's really odd. Usually the true hero is considered Anakin, especially from prequel trilogy fans. But that's interesting. I'd have to disagree, though. [laugh] I also think it's Anakin!
failed to heave his sunken X-wing from the swamp on Dagobah, only to be one-upped by a nine-hundred year old troll a third his size –
I really like that sentence.
a feat which has resulted in the catch-phrase “size matters not” becoming the mantra of the not-so-big on Earth.
I'm 5'4" so I don't know if I count as short? I guess I'm technically above average height, by like half an inch, but ... I can't say I ever took that as ... it never evoked any particular response in me.
As a woman, that brief phrase from Yoda’s dialogue has had significant meaning in my life.
Yeah, not mine.
I can’t help but to think back to one particular incident, that I hope will illustrate my point, when I was faced with the need to move a tack trunk full of horse equipment into the back of my truck. I needed to get it done in short order to make my schooling slot at the horse show – right after being informed that the grooms, a pair of whom could have hefted it up with ease, had been called away to an emergency at the barn down the road. All I had available to get that trunk off the ground and up the three-plus feet to the truck bed was my 5’3” body, a horse wrapped and content to stay put in his stall, six bags of hard-packed shavings, a large muck bucket, and my brain. Let’s just say, geometry and physics classes were put to good use. I emptied the trunk – about three feet wide by two feet deep by two feet high, made of heavy-duty wood – and started arranging the bags and bucket into an ascending ramp. With the help of my horse – okay, really just his lead rope – I heaved, shoved, and by sheer force of will wrestled that trunk up my makeshift ramp and into the back of my truck. Then I hurriedly packed it back up, tossed the shaving bags in behind it, and went on my merry way. (And yes, I did make it in time for my schooling slot.)
Um, okay.
I could talk about the energy, power, and all the other scientific terms that quantify moving a mass from one point to another. Perhaps it took me longer or I expended more energy than two strapping men would have. None of that matters, as far as I see it, because the trunk got from point A to point B because I decided it needed to be done.
Hm. Um - I guess ... that's good? It's kind of bootstrappy to me, the 'nothing can stop you except yourself!' thing, when I think actually quite a few things can stop you, but probably not in SW which is what we're talking about here, so that probably doesn't much matter. Um...
This determination to succeed is exactly the same quality that defines what we’ve come to know as heroic characters. Luke Skywalker believes he can sink his shot into the ventilator shaft, just as he believes in his later decision to lay down his weapon when confronting his father.
He lays down his weapon when confronting the Emperor, I'm pretty sure? He keeps it when he's confronting his father! But ... that's not really the point.
His heroism is defined not by the strength of a swift overpowering action but in strength of will and persistence. Neither deed – taking the blind shot or resisting the urge to kill Vader – was the easier course.
It’s easy to get caught up watching the acrobatic athleticism of Jedi swooping in with their lightsabers blazing and get mesmerized by their Force skills, and then believe them to be the strong heroic characters of the saga. And while Star Wars has shown oppressive strength with things like violent arcs of Force lightning streaking from Palpatine’s fingers or laser beams so powerful they can pulverize worlds, it is the determination of the oppressed, the weaker beings like Gungans and Ewoks, that have just as big an impact on the course of galactic history as those wildly impressive displays of raw power.
Yeah, they do, and pretty much everybody hates them. [laugh] Not to put a damper on things!
You know, we do get caught up in it, because it's cool, it's fun, and - and yeah, ti's impressive, and a lot of time it is genuinely heroic. But I think that having that mix of - what you get a lot is a mix of physical, traditional strength, with moral fortitude is ... I guess where it's at. To say it's just moral fortitude is for me, it's not very convincing.
no subject
on 2012-02-01 01:52 am (UTC)First, a disclaimer: I have never heard the "X is likeable for his moral fiber, not for his competence" argument in fandom, possibly because no one has ever had occasion to tell me that I like someone for their goodness, as I am an original grade-A anti-hero fangirl--- and as a result, most of the places where I get my fansquee on aren't going to have that argument as part of the discourse. (If anything, there is usually more effort being expended to make the case that Anakin Skywalker or whoever actually has anything resembling moral fiber, lol!)
So I'm making the following statements based entirely on you essay and the quoted parts of the other essay, which means that I may be getting the overall dynamic wrong like a wrong wrong thing.
That said, I think there's actually a three-factor model here, which is talent/determination/goodness, rather than a two-factor one of badassery/goodness.
The example in the quoted part, where the original essayist was talking about managing to move that tack chest, isn't about her moral fiber or purity. It's about willpower (and also about talent, because, applied geometry FTW!) It's not about being a good or bad person per se.
And the reason I usually like the anti-heroes better than the heroes (Luke being an exception, and one of the reasons I forgive George Lucas a lot) is precisely because anti-heroes are usually both talented and determined as hell. The "good" guys just get by on their boring incorruptible pure purity. And we're somehow supposed to like them because they're "good" even when they don't have anything else to recommend themselves.
And this is where the flames on the side of my face usually erupt, because I don't think incorruptible pure purity actually ever accomplishes anything without some amount of talent and/or determination to back things up. On which note, YES THIS FOREVER to basically everything you said about why Luke works as a hero. His sacrifice would be meaningless if he hadn't in fact had the ability to be a fucking badass Sith like dear old Dad but possibly even better. And he chucked it, of his own choosing, because that was what he thought was right, because his sheer badassery gave him the opportunity to choose to act on his values, rather than having his death forced on him against his will. Luke's surrender to death at the Emperor's hands is only meaningful if he is also the guy who did kick Jabba's ass (that is probably why that arc goes on so long: to rub our noses in just how badass a Jedi Luke really is, so that when he decides to throw aside his saber, it's clear that he's not surrendering because he expects to lose anyway. We've seen him win, at close quarters and against vile odds, in a way that even ANH didn't really show us and that we might have doubted after his failures at Bespin--- except that RotJ throws us right into proof positive that Luke would make one hell of a Sith if he wanted the job.) (And Luke has always been exceptionally competent and determined, to go along with his goodness; even when he wibbles about helping Ben, it's also because of his determination--- and he's clearly a competent pilot, and he expects, not to be magically swooped off on some kind of adventure, but to go and train to become an even better pilot--- he wants to use his talents and he expects to work to develop them.)
But I think there's "heart" like "oh, such a NICE boy!" and then there's grit. And then there's talent. Luke's got all three; his dad tried for them, but sadly slipped up on that first one, lol, which is understandable given that Luke, as you've mentioned elsewhere, had the advantages of, you know, not having been the victim of massive human right violations from childhood on. And something I love about Lucas is that he never tries to sell us on heart without some combination of talent and determination to back it up--- if anything, as in Han's arc, it's the "heart", the connection with and caring about others, that comes late in the game, after the formidable skill as a pilot and the determination to make his way on his own terms has made him awesome. And Leia is awesome not because of her goodness but because of her formidable toughness and intelligence coupled with principles--- she's a "self-rescuing princess", and you don't get that with "heart" alone.
And Obi-wan (especially when he is being written by Matt Stover, lol) has talent and determination in spades--- he doesn't beat Anakin by moral superiority, but by his skill as "the Negotiator", playing a head-game with Anakin (in a way that, given that, as he himself puts it, "I have trained you since you were a small boy"--- dude's gotta know all Anakin's weaknesses, not just physical and technical but psychological, and he plays them like a damn concert pianist in that last moment at Mustafar. That is not "heart", that is badassery. What Lucas sells us on is putting talent and determination in service to some ideal--- and frankly, IMO, Obi-wan at Mustafar is the acme of the dysfunctionality of the Jedi Order's "heart" or rather lack thereof, but that's another ramble. And I think that's why I can forgive Lucas a lot of his other faults as a writer.
I think this is basically me writing a concurring opinion here, lol.
no subject
on 2012-02-06 09:04 am (UTC)On which note, YES THIS FOREVER to basically everything you said about why Luke works as a hero. His sacrifice would be meaningless if he hadn't in fact had the ability to be a fucking badass Sith like dear old Dad but possibly even better.
THANK YOU. Yes, if it's just moral standing it's blah, though you can also get total determinators who are awful - I like them best with both. And I think true heroism requires both.
that is probably why that arc goes on so long: to rub our noses in just how badass a Jedi Luke really is, so that when he decides to throw aside his saber, it's clear that he's not surrendering because he expects to lose anyway
Oh! I've never thought of that, and it does make sense. I think it could still have been done better (moar adventures, not extending just one on and on and on), but that does make it less 'Luke is a Jedi now I GET IT.'
I do think 'heart' is valuable and important to heroism, it's just - it can't be the only thing, any more than sheer grit makes you a hero if you're awful or brilliance makes you a hero if you're cowardly and/or unprincipled. And yeah, I agree, that Obi-Wan exemplifies everything that is both right and wrong with the Order, and specifically all the tangled mess around principles/purity of heart/etc etc.
And yeah, Obi-Wan's measured talking to Anakin seems about as much about his purity as heart as Anakin luring Luke to Bespin is. And I don't have a lot of doubts about where that sort of thing got encouraged, or why after everything Obi-Wan talks so approvingly about how cunning Anakin "was." (I might have a ridiculously uncritical love for Anakin-as-Obi-Wan's-pupil. And then Luke, ditto. And it's both beneficial in some ways and, you know, emotionally scarring in others. This is shocking, I'm sure.)
no subject
on 2012-02-07 04:19 am (UTC)And, yeah, totally agree both that heart matters and that it needs other things to work. (I also have this snarky political-philosophy-type analysis about how we sometimes get fed "heroes" who have nothing going for them but "heart", or on the other hand how the social focus on "heart" at the expense of noticing the other traits of someone like Luke, precisely because "heart" by itself is useless, and focusing on "heart" as an heroic quality without noticing talent or determination basically fosters the status quo. In other words, the idea that being a "good person" is enough to change the world actually keeps people from thinking about how to change it, and when you add in the fact that a lot of "bad guys" have the talent and determination in spades without the heart, or at least without enough of it, you get a mythology that supports the status quo. Again, file this under Why Luke Skywalker Makes Me Forgive George Lucas SO MANY FLAWS.)
And SO MUCH LOVE for your description of Obi-wan's behavior! And I love your ridiculously uncritical love for Anakin as Obi-wan's pupil. Oh, Ben, you made that boy. And tried to make his son in the same image with that whole stealth patricide thing.