anghraine

Mr Bennet: my brother-in-law probably paid at least ten thousand pounds to arrange my daughter’s marriage. :(

Fandom: Is this poverty?

Tagged: #am i still on this? yES #people go through such acrobatics to make the gardiner-bennets out to be facing down a desperate future and... lol #but it's like—austen was persistently and deeply concerned with the vicissitudes of female dependence on their relatives #you don't have to make that out to be a scenario where they were ever going to go hungry or become governesses or whatever #to be a real concern and a characteristic one! #ajkfdfjkdaf

Current Location: Washington
Current Music: Alone (Heart)

An anon asked:

You’re an INTJ and you accept the common typing of Darcy as an INTJ, right? Well, I’ve just found a few people arguing that Darcy is actually a Sensor, arguing that a real Ni-dom would have better predicted that Wickham would target Lydia or some other young girl, and citing the fact that he misjudges Jane’s feelings for Bingley based on appearances. Would you argue that he’s still an INTJ despite the above, and if so, how?

I replied:

Yes, I’m an INTJ, and yes, I accept (and relish!) the usual INTJ-typing for him.

I’ll say upfront that I like the MBTI, but also have issues with it as a system and haven’t dug into the details for a long time. My friend

tree could probably answer this question better than I can.

But personally, I think one of the issues with discussion of it is that people tend to flatten everything about someone into the type and ignore other, individualizing motivations they have. IMO that’s part of what’s happening here.

So, to begin with, it’s less that Darcy did or didn’t intuit that Wickham was dangerous than that, due to upbringing (rather than temperament), Darcy initially didn’t register anything as important unless it touched on his own “family” circle—a circle that is inclusive of his friends and dependents, but not of strangers or simple acquaintances. Once Wickham wasn’t on his radar, eh.

With regard to Jane, we’re told that Darcy wanted Bingley to marry Georgiana, and that this factored into Darcy's involvement in the whole situation, even though he tried to keep it from affecting his judgment of Jane. I think the pretty clear implication is that he failed.

But the thing I find interesting about Darcy is that, despite his pride, and despite his biases, his judgments about people’s underlying characters are right a lot more often than you’d expect. He’s not wrong about Mrs Bennet and the younger girls. He rightly has reservations about Mr Bennet. He, also rightly, considers Mr Collins lucky to have married Charlotte, even though he barely knows either of them. He’s right that Elizabeth and Jane are concerned with propriety and excludes Jane as well as Elizabeth from his condemnation of the family in general.

And I don’t think these judgments are really following from considered observations that have eventually led him to a conclusion (sometimes he thinks so, but IMO he’s already reached his conclusions). They’re fast, influenced by both his general beliefs and by quick, subconscious observations coming together. What gives him the appearance of a more deliberate, straightforward thought process, I think, is his need to account for the new information he keeps accumulating after reaching a judgment. He will adjust his early conclusions to make all the data work, even though changing his mind troubles him.

Basically, he’s someone who has good intuitive judgment of character, but gets so caught up in his own ideas and thoughts that he sometimes misses what’s right in front of his face, though his need to keep integrating all information he receives usually keeps him from going too far astray. As I said, I’m no MBTI expert, but that just doesn’t sound like an ISTJ at all to me. I think Ni+Te makes a lot more sense.

(That said, I do think that a lot of readings of Darcy sound pretty ISTJ-ish, very much including academic ones. I just don’t think the character himself is.)

Tagged: #i saw a gifset the other day with him as istj and i was just like ... lol no #maybe in the movie i guess but canon darcy? no

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Current Music: How Can I Go On (Freddie Mercury & Montserrat Caballé)

Snowflake Challenge promotional banner with image of metallic snowflake and ornaments. Text: Snowflake Challenge January 1-31.

Hey everyone! It's nearly 11 PM on January 31st and I'm sick, but I threw words on the page until I had something to show for it for challenge #11 specifically:

In your own space, create a fanwork. Now, a fanwork is anything that you, a fan, creates. Fic, icons, and filling sparkly requests from your fellow snowflakes’ wishlists absolutely fit the bill. But really, your creation can be anything! Draw something, paint something, compose an ode to your current favorite movie. Whittle something to represent your fandom from a bit of driftwood or model it in clay and matchsticks or legos! Whip up a song about your favorite trope or concoct an interpretive dance number for your OTP. Bake some cupcakes and decorate them in homage to your favorite TV show or author. The possibilities are endless. Whatever means of self-expression tickles your fancy right now, embrace it! But most of all - have fun!

I thought of doing something simpler or easier but ... no, instead I word vomited the entire prologue to the Commander Elizabeth Bennet P&P/Mass Effect AU into a GoogleDoc. It's largely unedited but here it is!

Prologue

Elizabeth Bennet knew what people called her behind her back, whether they were Alliance or not.

The butcher of Torfan.

They didn’t understand. Nobody did, really, not even Captain Gardiner, who’d defended her to the tribunal, or Major Massey, who’d ordered her to take Torfan at any cost and been honorably discharged later.

Elizabeth was resigned to that. When she could do something about a problem, she acted; when she couldn’t, she let it go. And she couldn’t do anything about the past.

Least of all when she didn’t regret it.

Mira Gardiner was a failure.

A failure with a case full of medals, to be sure. She’d served the Alliance—served humanity—for decades, and the Alliance had rewarded her with a stream of commendations and promotions. Nobody talked about her lost chance to do more for their species. Not in her hearing, anyway. Even she hadn’t really thought about it in years. No point in wasting time recollecting the details when there was work to be done.

The more amorphous sense of failure, though: that lingered. Especially on the Normandy.

( Read more... )

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A Tumblr anon said:

Thank you (for that comment about the Bennet women and poverty). I'm pretty sure we saw the same post and I was like 'i don't know enough about the source time period to say, but I'm pretty sure that's not right'. The Gardiner's were my first thought-Lizzy and Jane both seemed pretty tight with them-but at the end of the day, there's 5 of them yes, and I understand Mrs. Bennet wanting them to get married, but uh, shes not doing a great job of presenting the family if she does? Tiniest violin yes

I replied:

You’re welcome! I’ve seen a lot of those posts (and a lot of articles to the same effect) and it’s just incredibly grating because it largely disregards her very real faults (she’s short-sighted, mean-spirited, self-absorbed, extravagant etc) to make her out to be some poor overlooked Cassandra. And yeah, everything she does impedes her goals.

The Gardiners are really important to this, as you say! They can afford a long, winding tourist trip for three people, they frequently have Jane and Elizabeth living with them, Mr Bennet has no difficulty believing that Mr Gardiner could have shelled out ten thousand pounds for Lydia’s marriage, Mr Gardiner did intend to pay several thousand pounds, and Mrs Bennet shrugs off any gratitude a normal person might feel because she would have inherited Mr Gardiner’s money if he hadn’t gone and had children (uhhhh). The Gardiners are well-off and certainly would have looked after her and the girls—but it would be a major step down from life as the Bennets of Longbourn, and that’s the real problem.

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Current Music: Runaway (Bon Jovi)

In response to the Austen meme, an anon asked:

2, 4, and 8?

I replied:

:)

2) Favorite Austen man

Darcy, predictably!

4) Favorite quote from the books?

Oh, there are so many! I’m really fond of “Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery,” though.

8) Least favorite couple?

As far as the main couples go, Marianne and Brandon. They barely interact and the language of the end is pretty distasteful to me.

Least favorite couple overall is … well, there are worse characters than either, but it is really hard to outclass Mr and Mrs Bennet for mutual awfulness.

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Current Music: Peace of Mind (Boston)

fradine at Tumblr asked:

What do you think Mr. Bennet means about Elizabeth's 'lively talents'? Since I'm rereading Mansfield Park and the very same phrase is used to describe Tom Bertram lol

I replied:

Haha, I never noticed that! But I’m inclined to think it’s a way of saying that she’s quick-witted and vivacious, and while it makes her clever and charming, it could also make her restless and perhaps impulsive without a way to satisfy her abilities/inclinations in family/social life.

(I think it’s prettyyyy euphemistic in the context he’s using it in.)

tagged: #tbh i think mr bennet considers elizabeth more of a quick than a deep thinker #hence his belief that she needs a 'superior' husband to steady her

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fradine replied to this post:

I personally think it’s very simple, we all have complicated feelings regarding our parents lol. I can’t even think of any example of a perfectly good parental figure in Austen. At least Mr. Bennet is better than Mr. Woodhouse, and yet everyone in Emma caters to his every whim! I think Sir Thomas is the only one that actively tries to be a good father, tho he is problematic in other ways obviously

I replied:

Eh, it’s true that parental figures are rarely entirely benevolent in Austen (or life, of course), but I think at the same time, that understates how harshly the narrative of P&P treats Mr Bennet in particular and Elizabeth’s escalating criticism of him. “Highly reprehensible” is quite strong IMO, especially in reference to a father; I don’t think it’s just that all parents are flawed.

Elizabeth’s mixture of love and gratitude counter-balancing her sharpening disapproval is realistic enough, though, sure.

Current Location: Washington

I see plenty of (correct) criticisms of Mr Bennet, but what I see less often is … well, to me, there’s something really depressing about Elizabeth’s relationship to him.

This is Elizabeth’s take on Mr Bennet right before the first proposal:

“Neither could anything be urged against my father, who, though with some peculiarities, has abilities which Mr Darcy himself need not disdain, and respectability which he will probably never reach.”

Later, however:

Elizabeth, however, had never been blind to the impropriety of her father’s behaviour as a husband. She had always seen it with pain; but respecting his abilities, and grateful for his affectionate treatment of herself, she endeavoured to forget what she could not overlook, and to banish from her thoughts that continual breach of conjugal obligation and decorum which, in exposing his wife to the contempt of her own children, was so highly reprehensible. But she had never felt so strongly as now the disadvantages which must attend the children of so unsuitable a marriage, nor ever been so fully aware of the evils arising from so ill-judged a direction of talents; talents which, rightly used, might at least have preserved the respectability of his daughters, even if incapable of enlarging the mind of his wife.

Still later:

“he [Wickham] might imagine, from my father’s behaviour, from his indolence and the little attention he has ever seemed to give to what was going forward in his family, that he would do as little, and think as little about it, as any father could do.”

Mr Bennet’s treatment of Mrs Bennet and the younger girls is certainly very bad, but also, Elizabeth has to actively work to not think of what a shitty husband and father he is out of gratitude that he treats her well and because she respects his intelligence (though, ultimately, his intelligence only creates a further indictment of him). That is an incredibly dubious situation! By the time he’s telling her that she needs to marry a man she’ll look up to as superior, it’s not even surprising.

In a way, it’s all the more “…” because Elizabeth herself, for all her criticisms, retains considerable respect and affection for him, and he faces no consequences beyond her eagerness to leave his house to marry someone much better than he is. I don’t think it’s #problematic—it’s just messy in a very realistic way. But pretty depressing, yes.

( tags )

Current Location: Washington
Current Music: Fooling Yourself (Styx)

Generally speaking, I prefer to keep my fics to some direct relationship with canon—retellings, what-ifs, “canon except my ship happens,” close fusions, 1-2 (and only 1-2) characters are genderbent, actually canon-compliant, etc etc. I have some that are pretty far out there, but I end up losing interest when they wander too far off, since it’s just original fic at that point and I have original fic.

Buuuuut

( Read more... )

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Current Music: A New Hope and End Credits (John Williams)

With regard to this post, perminas said:

why isn’t he concerned about this with jane? bingley comes off as a little silly frequently, although very charming, and jane is supposed to be nearly as smart as lizzie, right? or does he just expect sweet jane to not engage in risky behavior the same way lizzie would?

I replied:

I don’t think we’re ever told about how intelligent Jane is or isn’t, beyond what’s obvious; I would say that it’s very much up to interpretation, because her desire to think well of the world so profoundly shapes her perceptions and thought processes. Bingley is sometimes treated as sillier than I think he is, but I also think defenses of him can go overboard; the most Austen says about his intelligence is that it’s not deficient, just inferior to Darcy’s.

IMO Mr Bennet’s concern is driven both by his sense of Elizabeth’s intelligence and his sense of her general character; he talks of her “lively talents” placing her in danger, which combines both. I don’t think he’d consider it much of a concern for Jane temperamentally.

(I also suspect that he’d be inclined to underestimate Jane’s intelligence because it’s not like his. His characterization of Jane and Bingley’s forthcoming marriage seems to place them on a par.)

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Current Music: Battle of the Heroes (John Williams)

“I do, I do like him,” she replied, with tears in her eyes; “I love him. Indeed he has no improper pride. He is perfectly amiable. You do not know what he really is; then pray do not pain me by speaking of him in such terms.”

“Lizzy,” said her father, “I have given him my consent. He is the kind of man, indeed, to whom I should never dare refuse anything which he condescended to ask. I now give it to you, if you are resolved on having him. But let me advise you to think better of it. I know your disposition, Lizzy. I know that you could be neither happy nor respectable unless you truly esteemed your husband—unless you looked up to him as a superior. Your lively talents would place you in the greatest danger in an unequal marriage.”

There’s a lot going on in many P&P (and Austen) passages, but this one is always just … wait, wait, what? Like:

Elizabeth explicitly says she loves Darcy and gets upset at hearing him wrongly criticized (<3)
Mr Bennet is, apparently, too intimidated by Darcy to personally refuse his consent, but
He wants Elizabeth to retract her acceptance, because
He thinks Elizabeth needs to look up to her husband as her superior (!!!!) to be happy and “respectable” (suggesting she might make very questionable choices in marriage otherwise), and
He follows this up with his fear for her in an unequal marriage, implying that Elizabeth’s marriage will be unequal if she isn’t married to a man superior to her (I’d like “what is equality” for 100, Alex)

( tags )

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themarydragon replied to this post:

I thought I read somewhere that the actual Austen self-insert was Mr Bennett, Eliza’s dad?

I replied:

If so, they are wrong. Mr Bennet is thoroughly criticized for his irresponsibility and poor treatment of his wife and younger daughters, and ultimately tells Elizabeth that she needs to marry a man she’ll look up to as a superior. His views are definitely not Austen’s.

#also: ANY character as just a self-insert remains super problematic

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Current Music: New Life (Jennifer Thomas)

In response to this post, whetstonefires said that it's possible we don't hear about any change in Darcy's feelings about Mr Bennet because Elizabeth is no longer concerned about Darcy holding Mr Bennet against her.

I replied:

Hmm, I’m not sure about the first part. In the letter, Darcy specifies that Mr Bennet is one of the people whose behaviour contributed to his sense of the Bennets’ unsuitability. So he was holding Mr Bennet against her to some extent, at least in more or less the same sense that he was holding Mrs Bennet against her—and Elizabeth is quite anxious about Darcy’s and Mrs Bennet’s reactions to each other in the final stage of the novel.

Either way, Elizabeth is neither the narrator nor the only viewpoint character of P&P. There’s a distinction (sometimes a very sharp distinction) between what she thinks about and what is important for the narrative as a whole.

It’s possible that Darcy’s feelings about Mr Bennet are simply not terribly important to the narrative (though it was sufficiently worth mentioning to come up in the letter and then again in his preference for dealing with Mr Gardiner). But it’s also possible that there is no reason for his feelings to have changed beyond a certain baseline of human respect, and his distaste is just … not something to really emphasize at that point in the story.

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perminas responded to this post:

i think darcy has an especially keen insight into mr. bennet that elizabeth might not have - elizabeth’s contrasts for mr. bennet are her mother and sir william lucas, who make anyone clever look good, whereas darcy is able to view bennet specifically as a head of household failing in that duty. darcy’s high standards and his own struggle to do right would make mr. bennet’s failures seem even worse by comparison.

it’s interesting that we don’t get (or i don’t remember) any description of how the bennets interact with the poor in the village. it seems like most other austen heroines see that as part of their duty, and the bennets are principal inhabitants of their town. if mr. bennet was as lazy there as he is elsewhere, i think elizabeth would have some private thoughts about that.

I replied:

Hmm, well, I think it’s worth going back to Elizabeth’s response to Darcy’s conduct towards his dependents:

The commendation bestowed on him by Mrs Reynolds was of no trifling nature. What praise is more valuable than the praise of an intelligent servant? As a brother, a landlord, a master, she considered how many people’s happiness were in his guardianship!—How much of pleasure or pain it was in his power to bestow!—How much of good or evil must be done by him!

This can be seen in various ways, but my impression is that it’s a sudden realization; she’s not just considering these things, but considering them for the first time, or at least in a way she never has before. Personally, I see this as part of her character growth, a swerve from a pattern of understanding the world overwhelmingly in terms of herself.

( Read more... )

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Darcy’s take on Elizabeth’s family in his letter is pretty dickish, but also, it warms my dead cold heart when he’s like … the shit I’m saying does not apply to you or Jane. But it does apply to your father #sorrynotsorry

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Mrs Bennet had no turn for economy, and her husband’s love of independence had alone prevented their exceeding their income.

But Mrs Bennet is just worried about their economic future and Mr Bennet never thinks of saving money!

(What if—bear with me—characters in an Austen novel are a little more complex than that?)

I vagueblogged twice:

argh
(#sometimes tumblr is just ... so incredibly irritating)

and then:

Sometimes I forget how profoundly I disagree with people until a post takes off.

I'm pretty sure both were about people managing to take my post about the Bennets' mutual complicity in their horrible marriage into another poor helpless Mrs Bennet discussion that took over my activity bar.

An anon at Tumblr asked:

What's your opinion on the Bennett's marriage?

I said:

In the book, it’s horrible, and I don’t understand attempts to romanticize it.

I think Austen is honestly quite clear on this point. Mr Bennet’s treatment of his wife and younger daughters is the repugnant response to his own youthful error in marrying a woman because her spirited good looks gave the impression of good humour. Mrs Bennet, for her part, is not merely unintelligent but bad-tempered and rather nasty (I talked about my poor opinion of her here; I don’t go in for the apologetics for her at all).

We hear that Elizabeth had never been blind to how inappropriate Mr Bennet’s treatment of Mrs Bennet is, and I think part of the purpose of their spectacularly bad marriage is to provide a background for her own concerns about respect and equality in marriage. That background element is lost in making their marriage actually a good, loving one.

Personally, I also think it factors into her over-reliance on manners as a guide to character—her parents’ failures of decorum are the outward manifestations of their failures as spouses, parents, and human beings. The same is not true, or wholly true, of everyone, but she doesn’t really get that until her epiphany.

Oh, and I also think that it makes Elizabeth’s eagerness to leave Longbourn behind her at the end of the book more sympathetic if she’s grown out of a genuinely unpleasant family situation, so there’s that, too.

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I am sure I've ranted about this at some point in the past, but some very well-intentioned responses to something almost completely unrelated set me off, and I went for full-blown meta.

tl;dr - Mr Bennet being awful in his own way doesn't make Mrs Bennet any better

( Read more... )

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I didn't sign up for

month_of_meta , but I did want to do something, preferably several somethings, as they occurred to me. A lot of this is probably familiar to my f-list (I originally did it on Tumblr), but I think it's worth repeating a few dozen times :)

disclaimer: it doesn’t mean your fic is terrible badwrong if you don’t do these things or that nobody likes it or that your fic is even not good or that I am a perfect Georgian-period Austen fanwriter who has followed this to the letter from seventeen onwards, it’s just stuff that makes me (and most of my friends, but don’t worry, I’m not a BNF), more likely to read. Also, I tried to list things that are helpful for fic based on any of the novels, but the examples are from P&P since that’s like 95% of the fandom.

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Crossposts: http://elizabeth-hoot.livejournal.com/151436.html

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