unpopular opinion day + memes!

[anghraine]

I ranted about Han's skeeviness in ESB for yesterday, so I'm doing the unpopular opinions today! Though probably not for every conceivable fandom.

UNPOPULAR OPINION FRIDAY SATURDAY

Darcy/Fitzwilliam makes more sense than Darcy/Bingley, Fitzwilliam/Anne, or Fitzwilliam/Georgiana. Fitzwilliam/Georgiana, by the way, is kind of creepy.

I suspect many, many monosexual people are partially repulsed (like me!). Other people getting up in arms about how my being repulsed (...by men) is so misogynstic is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.

The Jedi are disturbing not because of the no-attachment thing, but because they’re raging hypocrites: samurai pretending they’re monks, and in the process messing up all those kids who are brought up to be monks. It’s like if the Air Nomads expected the Air Nomad children to abide by Air Nomad teachings, but fight like Fire Nation officers. Um, no.

I will always consider James a better person than Snape, even at his worst phase, because (1) James only picks on people his own size and (2) James does not join any genocidal hate groups.

I do not care how many lionturtle statues were randomly placed throughout the series, energybending still came out of nowhere. I like it as a solution, too. :(

I kind of wish Daine had become a goddess. I know, these plots are always about the renunciation, but...

I've seen five of the Doctors so far. Ten is my least favourite.

Polgara/Durnik is a bit weird to me. Not as weird as Sparhawk/Ehlana, though.

Gaston is the best Disney villain ever.

Fanfic isn't a gift; most authors write what they want to write and hope for the best, which is not generally how one goes about giving gifts. (Well, I really like Jane Austen, so here's a nice Oxford edition for you, Daddy!)

Penelope deserves better than Odysseus.

I think St. John Rivers is more likable than Rochester. Yup, I went there.

The extended edition of TTT does not begin to rehabilitate Faramir's character. It just makes him kind of pathetic.

I don't think tomboyish Jill saying that Susan's lost interest in Narnia because she doesn't care about anything except makeup and parties and staying young as long as she possibly can = adult female sexuality is evil.

Troi is 'eh' to me, but the virulence of the hatred for her is a bit ... disconcerting.

Colin/Mary OTP!

Gilbert (from Tenant) is kind of a jerk. Though obviously he can't approach the Charlotte-and-Emily levels of jerkassery.

High Wizardry's jokey Lone One as Darth Vader thing wasn't offhand geekery, it was epic foreshadowing. Think about it.

And tree just reminded me that I have been slacking on my mission to spread memes like a bacterial outbreak, so here are some proper ones.

Asexuality meme

Day 26: Who is your biggest ally?

My greatest ally is ... hm. I don't know. Not anyone in my family, certainly. tulina and hl , probably. (Yes, I know that's cheating and that you'e not really one person. But really.)

Day 27: What is your favourite type of cake?

Ice cream cake! Chocolate cake with oreo inside.

Day 28: What is your favourite type of pie? (Or, is pie an acceptable replacement for cake?)

Chocolate cream or eggnog. And it's about six to one half-dozen the other for me -- I'm not honestly much of a fan of either. And no, I don't feel excluded from the community because of this.

Day 29: Where did you first learn about asexuality?

Google.

Day 30: Tell us anything about asexuality that you want to end with.

There's a lot of debate about what asexuality really is, how exactly it works, what "makes" people asexual, who are trufax asexual people and who are special snowflakes, etc etc. A lot of this, as far as I've seen, comes from sexual people struggling to define the lived experiences of asexual people.

Protip: don't.

The ace community already has a quick 'n easy method of determining who is asexual and who is not. It goes like this.

Do you identify as asexual?

If yes, then you are asexual, congratulations, sunshine and sparkles and cake all around. If no, then you are not asexual, sunshine and sparkles and cake all around.

Thank you.

Fanfic meme

Day 26: What is the oddest (or funnest) thing you've had to research for a fic?

Huh, let's see. I did some research into entailments, but that wasn't so much odd as boring. (Blackstone = best sedative ever.) A lot of my research is like that, titles or names or Sindarin or calendars or clothes or hairstyles or whatever.

Oh, I know! I researched genetic sexual attraction and the Westermarck effect for the latest version of Subsequent Connections. Odd and fun!

Day 27: Where is your favourite place to write, and do you write by hand or on the computer?

My bedroom, and the computer. My laptop carries everything. Well, and a dozen backup discs, because I'm paranoid.

Day 28: Have you ever collaborated with anyone else, whether writing together, or having an artist work on a piece about your fic?

I've had artists for the three au_bigbangs, so technically I have for those, though they could tell you that I'm...not much of a collaborator. Otherwise, hl and I have brainstormed fics a few times, and I came up with the premise and helped brainstorm for A Long Engagement, so there's that. I tend to the bossy, though, so I work better by myself.

Day 29: What is your current project or projects?

ahahahahahahahahahaha

How about we narrow it to the things that I actually intend to finish in the near future: three five things fics (Leia, Catherine, Lucy), I'm considering a sort of femmeslash AU of First Impressions (or...not FI, but what I decided not to do at the outset), the sequel to Lucy Skywalker, and something to do with Subsequent Connections. I'd also like to finish up my shorter projects, like Padmé's third of Distaff Lines and whatnot. Oh, and there's a self-indulgent short Lucy AU. This is a very small portion of the things actually on my plate, though.

Day 30: Do you have a favourite fic you've written? What makes it your favourite? And don't forget to give us the link!

Unquestionably, First Impressions. Now that I've got a little more perspective, I can see things that are wrong with it or that I should have done differently. Charlotte's storyline just disappears, for instance, the end is really rushed, I should probably have varied the Netherfield scenes up a bit more, blah blah. But it's still my favourite. It took so much effort to work it all out and I don't think it shows, which makes me happy, I kept wanting to insert arbitrary changes (but what if they were wizards??) and didn't, my well-established love for Darcy increased exponentially for Catherine and I was terrified of Sueifying her -- but instead, she seemed to be everyone else's favourite part too. And just technically, I think the writing was a bit stronger than usual?

But the main reason? It's a Regency P&P retelling with girl!Darcy. Not Elizabeth-as-Darcy, not role reversal, not modern AU, girl!Darcy. I wanted to see this so badly, and it just kept not existing (woe) and now it does. Because I WROTE IT. And people LIKED IT. My baby! <3

Other fanfic meme, 'cause I can

(gacked from jedibuttercup )

The first 10 people to comment on this post get to request a drabble from you. Post all fandoms you're willing to write for.

Comment on this post, and I'll comment back with the link to the drabble when it's done. Just give me a fandom (or two, for a crossover), a name or pairing, and a one or two word prompt. Use your imaginations!

Fandoms: Austen (bookverse), Star Wars (original or prequel trilogies; no EU), Tolkien (anything), Harry Potter (bookverse). They can cross with anything on my fandom:___ tag.
 

Comments

[tree]

Polgara/Durnik is a bit weird to me.

THANK YOU.

Fanfic isn't a gift

well, except when it is, like for yuletide or other times when you're writing specifically for another person. but, yes, generally i agree.

Troi is 'eh' to me, but the virulence of the hatred for her is a bit ... disconcerting.

bwuh? there is troi hate? i do not understand. i agree that in the show she's kind of 'eh' but i think that's primarily because the writers didn't know what the hell to do with her. she had the potential to be so awesome and they wasted that by making her Captain Obvious 90% of the time.

[anghraine]

It's not just me! I'm not sure exactly what's so uncomfortable about them, but -- something. Aside of having zero interest in Durnik, that is. That whole thing with enforced equality was pretty uncomfortable -- it was never even raised with Poledra or Vella, I don't think.

Re: gift-giving -- oh, right! I thought of that, too, and meant to add a disclaimer but just forgot. My fail!

There is epic Troi hate, especially among the white male geek contingent. I'm not saying she was a good character because, like you say, 'I sense anger!' from a guy running at her with a sword falls a bit short of narrative brilliance, but she's no Wesley and I kind of side-eye the fanboy rage.

[tree]

i thought Polgara settled for Durnik. not that he's not a good man, but just... she could do better. and we get absolutely no hint from her about how she feels until The Moment, so it comes out of nowhere.

well, poledra figured out how to shapechange on her own, and beldin made vella into a bird himself, so unless Pol found a shapechanger for herself or was willing to live the rest of her days in another form with a mate, i guess there wasn't really any choice but to give Durnik powers.

it confuses me that there would be troi hate amongst the white male geek contingent because she's hot. what else do they need? hrmph.

mr tree really hates wesley too, hee. it's kind of adorable when he gets all ranty while we watch the show.

[anghraine]

I think I'd have liked Polgara/Durnik a lot better if we'd seen more of her feelings. It seems more like he adores her, so obviously they should be together. And since the relationships that she does actively pursue are all doomed, it becomes a bit worse in retrospect.

With the others, it's -- Poledra is functionally a sorceress, but Belgarath didn't know that when he married her, and none of the others are. Even Ce'Nedra isn't immortal, just long-lived, and her two or three hundred years is only a fraction of Garion's lifespan. There's a vague sort in-story justification, but for me it's -- pretty strongly gendered.

Sadly, I am completely unsurprised by young white male geeks hating on women in any kind of authority. Even weaksauce authority like Troi's.

[lotesse]

ita: Gilbert Markham is a total dick. The correct response to hearing a woman's story of trauma and domestic violence is not to narcissistically imagine how much she must luuuuurve having you as a savior, or to reflect that you liked the parts where she was getting whaled on better than the parts where she thought she might be happy with someone other than yourself.

Um. I seem to have FEELINGS about this. And a seminar paper/dissertation chapter, if I ever find a classroom to write it for!

[anghraine]

THIS. Though if I'm honest, I thought he was an asshole from that entire conversation where he and his mother instruct Helen about how to bring up her son, and he responds to her arguments with that 'you women, always having to have the last word!' thing. Shut up, Markhams. And then, apparently, everything had to be about him, including her domestic abuse. I can only assume that Arthur lowered her standards so far that Gilbert seemed a sweetheart in comparison. Or something.

[sathari]

The Jedi are disturbing not because of the no-attachment thing, but because they’re raging hypocrites: samurai pretending they’re monks, and in the process messing up all those kids who are brought up to be monks.

YES THIS. The no-attachment thing would work for a contemplative order of Force-sensitives who came to it of their own accord as adults. But they hitched themselves to the Republic as its enforcers and so they needed a greater number of Jedi to pull that off and so they had to suck kids in early and indoctrinate them to maintain that temporal power.

[anghraine]

I guess it's ... most parents try to indoctrinate their children with their beliefs, sure, but this is a system where the parents are clearly put under pressure to hand over their children to the Jedi without being told anything like enough to make an informed decision. Shmi and Anakin quite evidently have no idea what being a Jedi will entail for him and aren't given a chance to find out until he's locked into the Order.

That's skeevy enough. Then add the hypocrisy of 'we're all about passivity and peacefulness' while training five-year-olds with fatal weapons and wtf. After that, I always assumed the reformed Order would insist on political neutrality and not being anybody's enforcer, tyvm, so I was rather horrified at the EU's NJO hitching itself right back to the Republic. People, have you learned nothing? (There is, however, a great fic where, among many other things, Leia makes an executive decision as Chancellor that implicitly claims sovereignty over the Jedi, and Luke is livid.)

[sathari]

SO MUCH THIS. And there is a no-escape level of indoctrination that the Jedi Order pulls off that families don't necessarily have. So... yeah. Or rather so, ugh.

And, so with you on the disconnect between the non-emotional superstructure and the violent base. Because the Jedi philosophy would, IMO, work for adults who came to a contemplative order of Force-sensitive mystics, it's "just" that that breaks down when the Order is serving as the enforcers to a temporal political body e.g. the Republic.

(Also, seeing the meme up there: does this mean I get to request a drabble from you? Because I would love-love-love a Star Wars drabble from you, preferably Revenge-verse, OT-era or PT-era, your chouse.)

[anghraine]

Right. Leaving the Order is leaving your entire way of life; I'm kind of curious what made pre-Sithly Dooku split (but I'm not surprised he was a pretty old man by the time he managed to do it). And most of those people wouldn't have anywhere to go. (Based on what Obi-Wan says in ANH, it's my headcanon that he hit it off with Owen and Beru so well that they offered to give him a place at home, and he seriously considered it before falling back on ten years of Jedi ideals.)

I don't find the idea of children in the Order inherently wrong -- I mentioned orphans and boarders in QOM -- but only as students. Hogwarts has its problems, but nothing like the old Jedi.

Anyone can request a drabble from me, and I am happy to write in the Revengeverse! Is there anything specific you'd like?

[sathari]

Leaving the Order is leaving your entire way of life; I'm kind of curious what made pre-Sithly Dooku split (but I'm not surprised he was a pretty old man by the time he managed to do it).

So much this. I am fascinated by Dooku.

I think Jedi who'd leave probably had skills they could use elsewhere, but getting to the headspace where you could do that... huge. But I love your idea of Owen and Beru and Obi-wan bonding and then Ben being his stubbornly self-reliant Jedi self.

I don't find the idea of child!Jedi per se wrong, but I do find the idea of teaching detachment from the cradle to be really... icky, at least with human children (other species, other developmental needs). Or, as I said elsewhere, I think the Jedi put the detachment cart in front of the Force-using horse.

(Also, I have been meaning to say: totally agree with you about the enforced-equality thing with Polgara/Durnik, even though I like them as a couple and I even like sorcerer!Durnik; but the way it was done, it reads more like, "OMG, a woman who is more powerful than a man! Cannot have this!" because as you say, there is none of that with Ce'Nedra or Vella (Poledra appears to have had some magical power of her own, enough that she taught herself to shapeshift by watching Belgarath do it, which implies that she was pretty epic). (And then there's the whole skeevy thing with... I think the names were Barek and Meryl? Which I am not describing in detail without a trigger warning attached because SO MUCH FAIL.)

Oooooh!!! I'd love more Arissa, or more Shmi, or possibly both (the women in Anakin Skywalker's life bonding? And passing the Bechdel test, all at once? SHINY!).

[anghraine]

I am possibly more fascinated than I'd be otherwise if I hadn't read fialleril's fic before I actually got around to watching AOTC and ROTS, but still, AOTC!Dooku is interesting merely by virtue of being a Jedi-turned-Sith. (I kind of wish there'd been no Grievous and he was the Dragon all the way through. Also, that the Separatists weren't purest evil -- if we're going to have moral ambiguity, let's have some moral ambiguity! And it would be the most hilarious thing ever if the Separatist movement ended up as the proto-Rebellion.)

Yeah, I think it's really the headspace. But then, there's Anakin -- it looks like war is pretty much what he's been trained for (not that this affected my version in Revenge, or anything). He could leave the Order and be an officer in his own right, but if his problem is war itself, he's kind of ... where can he go? What can he do?

Oh, thanks about Polgara/Durnik. I mean, as a ship it's not especially compelling for me anyway, but ... it's totally cool for the ladies to be unequal. If it's about lifespan, Vella's going to die pretty soon in sorcerer terms; even Ce'Nedra's dryad lifespan can't really approach Garion's, so ... yeah, no.

OMG, Barak and Merel. Yeah. No please, Eddings.

Ooh, awesome prompt. I'll post in a little bit.

[sathari]

Oh, fialleril's Dooku is amazing!!!!!!!!! (We fangirl all the same writers, that is awesome.) (On which note, in the pro-verse, may I rec Yoda:Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart? Because he made me like Yoda, and also there is awesome Dooku and awesome original Jedi.) And, yes, epically on the awesome of Dooku as the constant Dragon, and the Seps as not-wholly-evil and the yeast starter of the Rebellion--- that would make so much more sense! (Okay, and I also want a universe where Dooku and Qui-gon break from the Jedi together and go around the galaxy righting wrongs and fighting just wars and freeing slaves and generally serving the Force as opposed to the Order and the Republic, and maybe Depa Billaba goes with them.)

Anakin-wise: war is definitely part of his problem. On the other hand, he's... probably more equipped than most Jedi to do other things, because he survived as a mechanic and pilot before, even as a little kid... but I don't think he knows about escape as opposed to being rescued, if that makes sense. And that is why he is all about saving people, because in his head, someone else always has to get you out; "any attempt to escape and they blow you up".

OMG, yes, I always saw the double standard in that whole "power inequity" thing, because... just no. As I say, I like Polgara/Durnik and sorcerer!Durnik, but just having it be that she interceded for his life and that coming back from the dead gave him certain powers (possibly not equal to hers) would make more sense, given, you know, Vella and Ce'nedra not getting sorcerous powers of their own. (Vella I am more okay with if the two of them are going to live as birds for her natural lifespan, because his powers will be less of an overt issue, but Ce'nedra either needed to be a sorcerer or a fuss did not need to be made about Polgara marrying someone who was not a sorcerer.)

Completely with you on Barak and Meryl. That did not need to happen that way; I do not care that it is a medieval fantasy, you can do better than that, Eddings.

Oh, I'm glad you liked the prompt! (And I loved the fic!) (I always try to do prompts that will be fun for the person to write as well as for me to read so I'm glad this one worked!)

[anghraine]

He is! LOL, fialleril showed up at my lj to comment on some ace meta and I was just OMFG A;DJFA;DFKA;DFJA;DKFJA;KDF (and might have guilted her slightly about Anabasis but it was for a good cause). And yes, we do. Great minds!

Oh, thanks for the rec!

Okay, and I also want a universe where Dooku and Qui-gon break from the Jedi together and go around the galaxy righting wrongs and fighting just wars and freeing slaves and generally serving the Force as opposed to the Order and the Republic

That sounds awesome! Also, a little reminiscent of my headcanon for Revenge!Qui-Gon, who was Obi-Wan's student and then went sailing around the galaxy looking for any Jedi he could find and learning all the things and being either a very militant monk-type or a very peaceful warrior-type wandering around working against injustice.

Re: Anakin, I can sort of think that yes, on the upside, he has experience of not-being-a-Jedi, and on the other, he was a child and a slave at the time and wouldn't necessarily know how to make a living at it. Also, with all due respect to Obi-Wan, I think the other Jedi might have had teachers who actually taught them how to do other things (AOTC kind of suggests that Obi-Wan even disapproves of using their powers for anything minor). I definitely can see the odd passive framework, though (and it makes his dying words even more tragic).

but just having it be that she interceded for his life and that coming back from the dead gave him certain powers (possibly not equal to hers) would make more sense

Yes! Just have it be, well, you die and come back, weird stuff happens (and awesome if he was a sorcerer but still not on her level, which might do something to counteract the "well of course Belgarath's more powerful than Polgara" in EEE).

I suspect I give awful prompts -- I try to avoid giving, you know, Han/Leia/Luke to people who don't ship it, but still. So I was glad to get one that I could have fun with!

[sathari]

OMG squee @ fialleril visiting your journal. And yes, more anabasis=Most Noble Cause Ever (unless possibly it is more of irnan's SW fics.) And yay for great minds! :)

OMG, yay for Revenge!verse Qui-gon, and I am so glad you like the idea of Dooku and Qui-gon running around the galaxy being actual Force-serving knights (and not the Senate's muscle, lol). But now I really want Revenge!verse Qui-gon.

And, yeah on Obi-wan's teaching style and its interaction with Anakin's... as you say perfectly, odd passivity: he's very active as long as someone else is picking the objective for him. (It is now my crack!headcanon that the entire tragedy part of RotS could have been averted if Padme had mentally rolled her eyes and said, "All right, dear, go build me a med-droid that's capable of averting whatever scenario you're having nightmares about." Because it's only when Anakin starts, ah, freelancing that things get ugly; he needs someone else to provide him with direction, and there is an angle at which RotS is all about the significant people in his life either exploiting that need [Sidious] or glossing over it [pretty much everyone else and especially the Jedi Order's framing of relationships in general, i.e., I am not blaming Padme for not doing this, but rather suggesting a more awesome scenario for her than the one demanded by the plot. Mostly because I am kind of disgusted at how much the way Lucas chose to operationalize the plot needs in the PT gave Padme the shaft, so I occasionally like coming up with ways she could have fixed everything, lol]. And it also probably explains why he clings to Palpatine like he does for the next two decades: he has just enough self-awareness to realize that it really doesn't end well when he tries to make strategic as opposed to tactical decisions, so to speak.) And oh-so-much-YES on it makes his dying words that much more tragic (as if they needed to be! *sob*).

Oh, I cannot tell you how happy I am that someone else agrees with me about Durnik/Polgara! And... I get Belgareth as being expected to be more powerful, he's her parent and has about three thousand years' worth of divine instruction and experience on her--- but in that case, Durnik should definitely not be Polgara's equal! Not right away, especially!

Heee! Most of my other fannish pals can only write stuff they can believe/buy into, so I am sort of fannishly canalized to give mutually-fun prompts as best I can! :) I am glad this one was fun!

[anghraine]

And it also probably explains why he clings to Palpatine like he does for the next two decades: he has just enough self-awareness to realize that it really doesn't end well when he tries to make strategic as opposed to tactical decisions, so to speak.

Right -- I think this goes back to the scene in AOTC where he explicitly states that he wants somebody, who is (1) wise and (2) NOT HIM, to have complete control over everything. So basically a philosopher-king. It is completely unsurprising to me that his bids for galactic domination never involve sole domination; I think he knows that he'd kind of suck at it, and that's why he invariably asks another, subtler person to do it with him.

As you know (lol), I don't tend to think the prequels improve the original trilogy, but the scene with Luke equating saving a loved one with saving their life and not getting that keeping them alive is maybe not the most important thing must, given the PT, be agonizingly familiar to Anakin. And then you've got him insisting that escape is impossible ("it is too late for me...") to the very end of his life -- and framing his perhaps only free action ever still in terms of rescue and other people's agency. ad;fka;dkfjal;dfjk

Re: Eddings -- right. I mean, if it's about experience, then Polgara should vastly outclass Durnik, and she doesn't. So that makes Belgarath > Polgara seem more that he's just more badass than she is. (Which is manifestly not true, because NOBODY is more badass than Polgara. *impartial judge*)

[sathari]

Yes, totally on the philosopher-king-who-is-NOT-HIM. I love this so much about Vader--- he just wants to love someone and hand them the galaxy to rule and it keeps not working out for him. Poor boy. (I seem to be saying that a lot of Anakin tonight!)

...the scene with Luke equating saving a loved one with saving their life and not getting that keeping them alive is maybe not the most important thing must, given the PT, be agonizingly familiar to Anakin. And then you've got him insisting that escape is impossible ("it is too late for me...") to the very end of his life -- and framing his perhaps only free action ever still in terms of rescue and other people's agency. ad;fka;dkfjal;dfjk

QFT. That is just so... Anakin and ow and I... just... saying "Poor boy" is getting repetitive but really, my heart hurts for him.

And ditto on "NOBODY is more badass than Polgara"--- although her mother does have her moments, lol.

[anghraine]

Also, fic! I thiiiink it passes, though there's not much bonding. But consider it implied.

[sathari]

OMG OMG OMG!!! You wrote me fic!!! And it is part of your canon and you posted it as part of your canon on AO3 and dedicated it to me!!!!! WOW!!!! SQUEEEE!!!

And OMG is it awesome fic! Shmi and Arissa bonding in the afterlife! D'awwwww!!! And Arissa dying--- MY TEARS. (I mean, it's PT-era fic, there is going to be death and dying. BAWWWW.) This was stark in very authentic ways and I hurt for Arissa and was AWWWW at Shmi finding her in the afterlife.

[anghraine]

Why, yes, I did. Of course it's part of the canon! :)

I kept trying to find a way to have them meet without it being All About Anakin and it was not working, ha, until I had my WAIT THEY'RE DEAD epiphany. Poor Arissa, though.

I mean, it's PT-era fic, there is going to be death and dying. BAWWWW.

So much truth. (Occasionally people will talk about how Vader killed ZILLIONS OF PEOPLE in the OT. It's like "um, possibly you have got the happy trilogy where Vader's murders consist of (1) maybe five people, and (2) many lulz confused with the super depressing one.)

This was stark in very authentic ways

Thank you very much. I wanted it to be, and I am not concise at all and struggled actually getting it across in that space. <3

[sathari]

EEEEE SQUEEE!!!! That makes me ridiculously happy, and also does this mean that Luke might get a ghostly visit from his Mama? (And also-also, for some reason I like the idea that ghost!Arissa hasn't been off hanging out with Luke because she, and possibly Shmi, were busy with Luke's actual twin? Not least because that would ace the Bechdel test so hard.)

Yes, definitely poor Arissa, but yay for not-all-about-Anakin, or indeed about any conventional "girl stuff" like the grand/babies. (The two of them talking shop about piloting/navigation, though... makes me grin.)

Yes, indeed! As you reminded me, the role of genocidal/mundicidal whackjob in the OT goes to Tarkin, not our resident Jedi-turned-Sith, whose main flaw in that area tends to be that he considers incompetence a capital crime and doesn't balk at all at torture. (Though honestly, if you are walking around with none of your own limbs and a respirator and a lot of possibly-ill-healed third degree burn-scars, and have been for two decades, your understanding of the overall meaning of pain is probably kind of screwed up to begin with. Meaning that Vader's concept of what he's doing to Leia and then Han is probably not in line with the general understanding of what it means to torture someone--- when you're hurting all the time yourself, that framework is just... different. Not that it makes it okay, but... it's like with him killing the baby!Jedi, his understanding of that is just skewed, badly. And with the crippling/pain thing, Palpatine probably meant for it to happen that way, too. *squick*)

You're welcome, and it's amazing and fits the space perfectly!

[anghraine]

If I am perfectly honest, I'm not sure what Arissa has been doing. I considered that she might be guiding, er, Luke's twin, but I also think she might not even be a ghost. I suspect it takes time to master for a not-Skywalker, and Arissa is on some path of her own. And it's probably not likely that she could find her so quickly when it took twenty years to track down Luke.

(Originally the scene was actually going to be Arissa and Shmi talking about finding her-name-is-redacted-for-spoilers, but I decided that "women talking about babies" failed the spirit of the request if not the letter of the Bechdel law. Well, what you said, pretty much!

whose main flaw in that area tends to be that he considers incompetence a capital crime and doesn't balk at all at torture

Ha, yes. I suspect Vader considers any crime a capital crime, really. And he's totally cool with torture -- though I've always thought it interesting that in the radio plays and novelizations and everything except the movie itself, the implication is that he sends the robotic torture droid away; the "mind probe" he refers to is a creepy Force thing and that's why she hasn't so much as a smudge on her makeup. (I vaguely alluded to this in Revenge, where Luke is all MIND RAPE IS BAD and Vader's like "duh, that's why it's for torture.")

I am personally convinced that Palpatine knew more or less exactly what was going to happen at Mustafar and thoughtfully prepared the suit ahead of time.

[sathari]

Yeah, totally makes sense that Force-ghosting might be a Skywalker thing. (I just like Arissa well enough to want her around more. :) :) :) )

I suspect Vader considers any crime a capital crime, really.

Hahah, yes. And that is super creepy about the Force-powered mind-rape thing, which I had not picked up on so much especially as I haven't heard the radio plays. And LOL @ Revenge-verse Luke and Vader (whom I will never not love).

I am personally convinced that Palpatine knew more or less exactly what was going to happen at Mustafar and thoughtfully prepared the suit ahead of time.

There is nothing about this idea that is not super specially creepy and horrible and makes me want to hug Anakin, but your use of "thoughtfully" is just the perfect freakiness-icing on the creeperific cake. *shudders* *pets Anakin* (Man, his mentors just screw him over every which way, don't they? Poor boy.)

[anghraine]

Well, Obi-Wan does it, so non-Skywalkers are clearly capable -- but I expect it's a lot harder without epic power levels and without being able to find Luke (and potentially her daughter, depending on how thorough the creeptastic brain-wipe was), she doesn't have a lot of motivation. I, obviously, also want to write moar Arissa! So I might have resurrected her for canon-compliant stuff. BECAUSE I CAN.

The mind-rape thing is creepy on two levels for me: that Anakin/Vader regards skeevy mind stuff as torture to be used for getting information, and that apparently every other Jedi ever doesn't.

but your use of "thoughtfully" is just the perfect freakiness-icing on the creeperific cake

ahahahahahahaha. I cannot write about Palpatine without that sort of saccharine-creepiness. It's even there in ROTJ when he's constantly calling Vader his friend as if ... idek. THROW HIM DOWN THAT REACTOR SHAFT, ANAKIN.

[sathari]

*nodnod* Yes--- that Skywalkers are better at it than most (see: epic power levels) but other Force-sensitives can do it too. (And maybe it's easier for Skywalkers precisely because they're so connected to loved ones, like irnan's stuff about strong Skywalker Force-bonds? They want to come back and hang out!)

The mind-rape thing is creepy on two levels for me: that Anakin/Vader regards skeevy mind stuff as torture to be used for getting information, and that apparently every other Jedi ever doesn't.

QFT, yet again. This so much. And I can also see Anakin/Vader eschewing the whole Force-persuasion thing entirely on the grounds that it is too much like slavery; I loved when irnan's Rebel!Anakin felt all skeeved about it in "air and angels"!

It's even there in ROTJ when he's constantly calling Vader his friend as if ... idek. THROW HIM DOWN THAT REACTOR SHAFT, ANAKIN.

YES THIS. THIS THIS THIS and also your last line made me literally LOL with the squee! :) :) :) YES ALREADY.

[anghraine]

irnan's theory totally makes sense here -- especially because I've vaguely thought of Force-ghosting the way I saw it on TV Tropes once (lol): choosing to tie themselves to the mortal world forever to help those living there rather than to transcend or whatever. Which makes perfect sense for Skywalkers, but I think Arissa's a bit more about Arissa. In a nice psychologically healthy way.

I also love the idea of Anakin being skeeved out by it -- because for all the people whining about how he must have used his mastery of the mind-trick on Padmé ... what mastery? He never uses it ever. Not even as Vader. So I can easily see him being horrified. Even the transmitter didn't completely strip them of agency.

[sathari]

...choosing to tie themselves to the mortal world forever to help those living there rather than to transcend or whatever. Which makes perfect sense for Skywalkers, but I think Arissa's a bit more about Arissa. In a nice psychologically healthy way.

Yes to all of this--- Skywalkers, especially Anakin, would be all about their family and their attachments; Arissa's got that bit more... centered... stance. Which might be what makes her attractive to Anakin--- sort of what Shmi might have been if not for slavery?


...for all the people whining about how he must have used his mastery of the mind-trick on Padmé ... what mastery? He never uses it ever. Not even as Vader.

This, EXACTLY!!! It is completely my headcanon that Force persuasion is the one power that Anakin Skywalker will not ever use even as Darth Vader. Because it is too much like slavery, and while he is completely willing to fuck your shit up in a straightforward kind of way, that whole mind-control thing is just not on.

And... GAH... on using the mind-trick on Padme. There is just nothing that suggests that to me, not least because Lucas is kind of anvillicious about that kind of thing and I think it would have been made obvious somewhere in their Most Awkward Courtship Ever. Like Padme is going on about how they'd be living a lie, and then we see Anakin with a Conflicted Look, and then he murmurs something in the spooky Force-persuade voice a la Kenobi, and then they're kissing.

Except, you know, that doesn't happen. And Force persuasion is pretty obvious to the audience when it happens in the rest of canon, so. *facepalm* I mean, Anakin is completely stunned when she comes out with the "I love you" on Geonosis, so, yeah. (As I said elsewhere, I think they end up married because they're both skeeved out by the clone armies and because the Jedi Order and to a lesser extent the Senate have, in their minds, completely abrogated any moral authority over their love life with the whole "cloned slave army" deal.)

[sixbeforelunch]

I think St. John Rivers is more likable than Rochester.

I've never really thought about it in these terms before, but now that you say it, I think I might have to agree with you.

[anghraine]

Wow, I don't think anyone's ever agreed with me about that! It's kind of like James vs Snape, in a way -- no matter how awful he might have been, he wasn't cool with hate speech and genocide, which automatically places him above Snape. No matter how awful St John Rivers may be, he doesn't lock any women in the attic, trick eighteen-year-old orphans into bigamy, etc, and doubtless would be horrified at the very idea.