anghraine

It’s a day that ends in Y, so I’m thinking about Byzantine Gondor again

Tagged: #someday i WILL commission faramir and éowyn in byzantine robes in the 'white lady of rohan' scene #it's not today (i have too many ocs i want lol) but it will someday happen

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There’s a line in LOTR about how the people in Minas Tirith stare at Legolas because they’ve never seen anyone so beautiful, and—

Well, it presumably predates Tolkien’s later idea that Númenóreans are barely distinguishable from Elves in appearance; modern Gondorians might look different these days, but at least some of them are said to look like ancient Númenóreans.

And, after all, some of the Edain also were virtually indistinguishable from Elves. Tolkien’s later work tends to treat the human-Elvish difference of appearance as more of a spectrum than a hard line. It seems a little continuity break, if a very minor one.

… But “Elvish” there is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Elves don’t all look alike! And the Edain who look like Elves specifically look like Eldar, so perhaps when Tolkien says Númenóreans looked like Elves, he means Eldarin Elves in particular.

Headcanon conclusion: Legolas looks Silvan, and Gondorians just think Silvan Elves are super hot.

Tagged: #i'm really entertained by the idea that gondorians think noldor et al look 'like us but More' but silvan elves are where it's really at #deep blogging #truly the deepest #also i appreciate that this is apparently reciprocal to some extent? at least legolas thought boromir was notably pretty

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Unsurprisingly … there’s an AU that lives rent-free in my head where Faramir remains Ruling Steward in Gondor, and Aragorn wholly dedicates himself to rebuilding Arnor (assisted by Gondor after the war).

Sometimes it’s in a Denethor lives scenario; it’s not like Denethor was ever going to concede the Ruling Stewardship, healing hands or no healing hands, but his gratitude(!) to Aragorn for saving Faramir might lead to him being much more accommodating as an ally than he would otherwise be.

But also, sometimes it’s not out of strict necessity—perhaps Elrond “only” requires the restoration of Arnor for Arwen’s hand and so that’s the overriding goal that Aragorn focuses on, (rightly) trusting Faramir to have his back in Gondor. (And/or he himself wants to prioritize Arnor; he could, of course, become King of Gondor but largely leave it in Faramir’s hands while dealing with Arnor, and I sort of wrote a fic where this is the case, but ehhh.)

Or there’s some vague idea where Elrond’s conditions are the same and Aragorn has to make a very hard choice, but makes it nevertheless, and it’s Elrond who ultimately concedes, accepting a future for Arwen as “only” Queen of Arnor. This works most easily with alive!Denethor, but idk, part of me prefers the idea of it as an independent choice even though I’m really into scenarios where Denethor survives.

The thing is, of course, that Aragorn in the book is so focused on becoming King of Gondor and feels so strongly that it is his right to do so that it takes a lot of finagling to make it work. It’s just not probable for his character.

…and yet.

Tagged: #legendarium fanwank #putting that one there to be safe since it's kind of intrinsically wanky #éowyn: no longer do i wish to be a queen #faramir: well technically you wouldn't be... #aww but éowyn as the ranking lady of gondor is also really charming to me #i know that at the end of the day it's no less monarchist but ... i like and want it

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potatoobsessed999 responded to this post:

#it’s interesting that he would go out of his way to clarify that he doesn’t want gondorian domination#as if that is something remotely possible#in the present moment #but it’s nevertheless in his head as a dark possibility #which makes a whole ton of sense if you bear the dream-visions in mind (via anghraine)

I’d been wondering specifically about that bit, why the prospect of Gondorian imperialism would even be on his radar! This makes so much sense. He’s looking beyond the war, afraid that even if they win, what they do to get there might change them into something monstrous. And he’d rather lose than have that happen. Better to fall like Arthedain than like Númenor.

I replied:

Yeah, exactly! And that fits very neatly with his rejection of the Ring.

I think LOTR is quite clear (as are Tolkien’s letters) that death and failure are to be preferred above victory with the Ring, however difficult a choice that may be in the moment (and Faramir does genuinely struggle with it for a moment). But Faramir has already been thinking about the cost of victory for victory’s sake—even when it means survival—and about the intolerable forms that victory can take. Refusing the Ring is hard, but also the natural culmination of his thinking.

Tagged: #i think it also fits with the implication throughout lotr that there's a greater purpose at work #as with the ring falling to frodo #and gollum etc #like ... maybe faramir isn't haunted by númenor just because

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Faramir quasi-functions as Tolkien’s mouthpiece, so his distaste for the increasing militarization of his culture doesn’t really require explanation. But it occurred to me (while I was grading, lol) that it makes a lot of sense in-story, too.

After all, Faramir is a Númenórean, both in the general cultural sense and in the specific throwback sense. He sees the Dúnedain around him becoming increasingly martial and increasingly inclined to hero-worship warriors. Even the people who admire Faramir himself typically frame it in terms of his own abilities as a warrior and captain, not his other qualities.

Gondor isn’t in a position to become another Númenor (…currently), but tbh I think it’s perfectly understandable that someone who regularly has dream-visions of the Downfall is a touch jumpy about all this.

Tagged: #it's interesting that he would go out of his way to clarify that he doesn't want gondorian domination #as if that is something remotely possible #in the present moment #but it's nevertheless in his head as a dark possibility #which makes a whole ton of sense if you bear the dream-visions in mind

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I think it’s fair to point out that Gondorians tend to act as if they’re the only ones holding back Mordor and that nobody appreciates it.

But (I’m sure everyone is shocked that there’s a qualifier) I also think it’s an exaggeration of the reality more than something manufactured out of thin air.

Gondor is one of Sauron’s chief opponents and targets. IMO you could make a very fair argument that Sauron considers Gondor his greatest single obstacle as a state (understanding that Gondor in the book is not a glorified city-state but a large country with highly populated, militarized regions), and this is why he throws so much into assaulting Minas Tirith. It’s not that he isn’t also assaulting other places! But I think it’s pretty clear that the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is particularly monumental; it’s why, among other things, he sends the Witch-king there (described by Gandalf as Sauron’s greatest captain).

So: Gondor is not the only bulwark against Mordor, but it is a very major one and the people of Gondor have lived and breathed the war for generations. And, honestly, IMO it’s also quite fair for them to feel that many people are some mix of dismissive, oblivious, and condescending about Gondor and what it’s enduring as a state and a people. This isn’t coming out of a vacuum.

Tagged: #i'm just imagining if the later stewards of gondor had diverted their forces into something as petty and ridiculous #as the fight over the arkenstone #but they couldn't /afford/ to do that even if they felt so inclined #because of the simple reality of where they are and what they have to be doing #everyone is doing their part but it doesn't mean that all parts are the /same/ or that people aren't kind of shitty about gondor #in particular

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An anon asked:

More HEARTCANON/SOULCANON/any canon about Gondor please! Or, related: do you think Faramir ever regretted recognizing Aragorn as king of Gondor? Did Aragorn ever have second thoughts about the guy he appointed steward?

I replied:

Oh, interesting!

My default inclination is to say no, because of the mystical element of those initial recognitions. It’s not a rational evaluation of each other’s abilities/qualities so much as a sense of basic identity.

Faramir doesn’t recognize Aragorn as king because he thinks through it and decides Aragorn has the qualities of a good king, but because after the healing, he feels in his soul that Aragorn is the king in some essential way. Aragorn’s entire conduct towards Faramir inclines me to think that he sees Faramir as the rightful Steward, has a sense of Faramir’s being that he (Aragorn) respects, and—as far as Faramir is concerned—never considers acting in any way other than he did. I don’t think either would have regrets in the sense of wishing he had made different choices; they couldn’t have made different choices, ethically.

That said, there’s a fairly major issue that seems (IMO) like it would have to come up: the disparity between their visions for Gondor.

Faramir famously says in TTT, well before meeting Aragorn:

I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens: not a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.

He would like to have a proper king again (“the Silver Crown return”). But the rest of the quote is about his vision for a then-theoretical renewed Gondor, and repeatedly returns to the point of avoiding domination and fear.

Meanwhile, what actually happens:

All men that had allied themselves with Sauron were slain or subjugated. (POME)

Gondor [was] soon to be of imperial power and prestige… I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting and in the earlier years of A.’s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. (Letters)

And wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old. (LOTR)

At some point Aragorn “granted mercy and peace” to Mordor’s traditional allies once he became their overlord, which is—well, Tolkien’s description of Aragorn’s Gondor as “imperial” seems very accurate.

I’ve wondered for a long time about the reason for the gap between Faramir’s ideal and Aragorn’s reality, and I have some scattered ideas that aren’t really relevant, but in-story: how would Faramir respond? As Steward, he is Aragorn’s chief advisor and regent. Even if what happens looks less stark and more complicated from the inside, even if I squint, it’s hard to see Faramir being 100% rah-rah-rah onboard with all this.

Would he make actual trouble over it? Canonically, it’s hard to see anything very disruptive happening, but at the same time, I don’t see their relationship as always one of perfect harmony. If there ever is major trouble between Faramir and Aragorn, this is certainly where I see it cropping up. But whether that would extend so far as wishing they’d chosen different people …? I’m not sure. Even with all my reservations, it’s hard to see it going that far.

[ETA: 3/8/2024: this was a #de las bóvedas post.]

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hmm

“But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-earth the line of Meneldil son of Anárion failed, and the Tree withered, and the blood of the Númenoreans became mingled with lesser men.”

—Elrond, Fellowship of the Ring

“Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anárion had no heir. But the stewards were wiser and more fortunate. Wiser, for they recruited the strength of our people from the sturdy folk of the sea-coast, and from the hardy mountaineers of Ered Nimrais.”

—Faramir, The Two Towers

hmmmm

Tagged: #obviously they both have their biases in their interpretations #but also they're both pretty clearly characters who are meant to be speaking for tolkien #at least to some extent #(he said so outright of faramir iirc) #and so it's interesting to me that their takes on this are so different; faramir sees the /cultural/ shift as regrettable #but the actual integration of other peoples as wise #and i'm not sure that would be the impression generally given at all if not for his monologue #(which i think people still tend to overlook; there's a lot of UMMMM in fandom takes on gondorian dúnedain's ~impurity) #anyway this certainly is a ....... thing

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Not to harp on the same points eternally, but…

Tolkien denied that using Old English to represent the language of the Rohirrim meant they are functionally old English, but at the least they seem to be roughly northern European. OTOH, he very heatedly insisted that Gondor is not northern European and compared it at varying points to Italy, the Byzantine Empire, and ancient Egypt. In particular, he described Minas Tirith as analogous to Rome and Byzantium (which one depends on the context).

Nothing is 1:1 in Middle-earth, but those are at least the closest inspirations.

And sometimes I wonder about … aesthetics, you know? Not just horses vs trees, but say—Éowyn and Faramir’s wedding in Rohan, with Éowyn in her Eorling gown and Faramir and perhaps Lothíriel et al in ~~Byzantine~~ Gondorian robes, and all the different hairstyles and different musical traditions and so on. And like, is the starry mantle a sort of whatsit … chlamys? What about hairstyles/pieces? Does Aragorn switch from Ranger gear (whatever that looks like) to robes like Justinian’s?

Or … I don’t know, but I’m just curious about what the contrast between Rohan and Gondor could look like.

Tagged: #i am genuinely thinking of commissioning faramir/éowyn art that really shows a contrast between their backgrounds and cultures #there's a lot of pretty art but i think the generic medieval conception of rohan and esp gondor touches quite a bit of it

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I get that other people feel differently about Aragorn and Éomer’s canonical decades of warfare in other countries, but I’m getting a rush of ‘aww! bromance!’ responses rn on my post about it and jagkdjfadklhkhfda;lkjddakf;

Tagged: #i guess that's better than 'making yourself overlord of other peoples through war is actually right and good because they're Bad' #which i also got #and 'gondor is too small to actually do what tolkien said it did' is also an interesting take i've seen #but it's just ... aghhhhhhhhh #at least do it off /my/ post?

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I just ran over another post about how Númenóreans don’t really have special abilities, but this one specifically relied on the quote about how they became virtually indistinguishable from Elves “even in powers of mind.”

Uhhh, that’s one way to prove your point, I guess.

Tagged: #people have some REALLY odd ideas about dúnedain #there's the usual equation with the dúnedain of the /north/ and dismissal of gondor of course but also #like ... i just read this trainwreck of a thread about how any infusion of elvish blood = dúnedain and anyone without it = not dúnedain #ergo some random númenórean in dol amroth = not a dúnadan while eärendil would be and i'm just... what #that's a tangent but it also came up in my search!

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brynnmclean responded to this post:

I literally just read one of Tolkien’s letters where he explicitly stated that Venice was Gondor/Pelargir…

I replied:

Yeah, at varying points he explicitly compares Gondor to Italy/Rome, the Byzantine Empire, and ancient Egypt—but certainly not France!

heget said:

Please if Gondor was France JRRT would be disparaging it and especially its language

I replied:

lmaoooo true

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was I put on this earth to suffer

[image text: I think that it is simpler than that. Gondor was based on France]

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I don’t know why I even click on the Gondor discussions that Quora sends me

Tagged: #even when it's not directly about the stewards it's ... pretty bad #either a) inane b) weak defenses of movie gondor c) super racist or d) some combination thereof #not that there isn't the occasional good post but mostly #concentrated yikes

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The “why do Gondorians keep naming people after Túrin” thing is kind of weird, honestly.

Like, yes, he was a tragic figure who left a trail of disaster. But he was also an icon of their ancestral people who achieved great deeds despite his personal flaws and a terrible curse. In all probability, Gondorians aren’t thinking of ill fortune when they name their sons Turambar or Túrin; they’re thinking of standing defiant against an implacable and overwhelming foe. It’s … not that strange.

Tagged: #there was a time when i disliked túrin! i get it! but also it's like #pretty indisputable that /in-story/ he's an iconic hero to the edain and dúnedain? #it is not that strange that gondorians would respect their ancestral heroes and particularly túrin and morwen #whose grim heroism seems ... very much to the dúnadan taste #idk maybe it's just because i've seen the 'lol but WHY' so many times and i'm just... y'all. come on. #you don't have to like túrin but a hell of a lot of people in middle-earth do

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According to Tolkien himself, Gondorian Dúnedain and their culture “are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms,” and yet the imagery we so often get (certainly in the films) is just … /sigh

Tagged: #he also thought of gondor in association w/ byzantium and italy but i think this is his most explicit statement #meanwhile people go on about how it has to be generic renfaire medieval bc of his ~vision #(okay i probably owe apologies to renfaire) #note 1: the full quote this comes from is hashtag problematic (not as much as other things he said but nevertheless) #note 2: will i ever be done complaining about this? PROBABLY NOT

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heckofabecca responded to this post:

what do you mean, it doesn’t make sense???

I replied:

Well, there’s a basic quandary that Tolkien wrangled with:

1. Sindarin is used conversationally in Gondor.

2. Gondorian Sindarin is largely unchanged from classic Sindarin.

( Read more... )

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I reblogged this post and added:

#i love gondorian sindarin so much y'all #it doesn't make sense and i don't care

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I reblogged a post from 14 May 2014 consisting of:

*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ ✿ Gondor ✿* *:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧

Tagged (in Sep 2020): #i'm in the mood rn #my looooove :')

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I was just watching an old Akallabêth video and remembered the AU idea I had where the Eagles rescue Míriel from the Meneltarma and take her to Elendil or something.

The idea was that she becomes ruler of the Númenórean kingdoms (in truth and not only in name), and though it’s another tragedy when Elendil is killed taking down Sauron, she lives to see Sauron defeated (fuck yeah!!). And she survives the war by a good while as the reigning Queen of Arnor and Gondor. And this creates a precedent for Ruling Queens in Middle-earth, so there are more of those along the way, and Fíriel also becomes ruling monarch (not Arvedui tyvm) and so. Things.

But mostly … Míriel! is! saved!!

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